253 | Negotiating for More with Kelli Thompson

Hilary Hendershott: Well, hey, money lover, I have with me today a woman who wants you to be wealthy as much as I do. This is Kelli Thompson. She is an executive coach on a mission to advance women to the rooms where decisions are made. She coaches women executives to trust themselves, be more confident, and build a career they love. She’s the founder of the Clarity and Confidence Women’s Leadership Program, and the author of the book Closing the Confidence Gap: Boost Your Peace, Your Potential and Your Paycheck. She likes alliteration, folks. She’s been featured by the Harvard Business Review, Forbes, Fast Company, the HuffPost, and others. Welcome to the show, Kelli.

Kelli Thompson: Awesome. I’m excited to be here and talk about money.

Hilary Hendershott: Yeah, how did you get started doing what you do?

Kelli Thompson: Oh, my gosh. It actually probably goes way back. I always joke that when I was growing up I actually wanted to be a meteorologist, like my whole life, went to school, ‘cause I wanted to be the, the TV weather anchor,

Hilary Hendershott: The weather lady.

Kelli Thompson: The weather lady. I know it’s funny, cause I got to college, and I’m like, oh. I’m like, “If I want to make okay money, I’m gonna have to do the 6 and 10 o’clock news.” I’m like, I don’t want to do that, I want to be home, you know, with my family and my people. So anyways, I was working at a bank, and I ended up majoring in political science, and I think working at a bank was the first time where I was like, money’s kind of cool, talking about money; thinking about money; understanding how money works. And right around that same time my mom became a financial advisor, and I still remember this was before, I don’t wanna say, it was not before the Internet, but before there was like a lot of good online tools. She brought home this little paper slider tool and showed me like, okay, if you invest $25 a month, here’s how much you’ll have in 30 years. If you do 50, 100…

Hilary Hendershott: Look at her! Passing on the generational wealth. Go, mom.

Kelli Thompson: Yeah. And so I stayed in banking. I started in sales, went to sales training, eventually found myself in human resources. And I was, you know, leading orientation, hiring people, HR business partner. So I was talking about compensation a lot. So I found myself on the other side of money, which was helping people talk about money as an HR person. Especially even now, as a executive coach, a lot of the women I’m working for, we have money conversations all the time, because we’re talking about negotiating pay; they get promoted; they’re renegotiating pay; finding different jobs.

Kelli Thompson: And I really became passionate about it because I noticed a couple of things that women just seemed to have a harder time talking about it than men did. So when I was on the other end of negotiations as an HR person, men would always negotiate, and even the starting salaries that they would put on their job applications were higher than what women would put. And I was like, okay, this is different. I remember doing onboarding and orientation at my organization and collecting offer letters. I was like, wow, there’s a big disparity, all the men in here have the high paid jobs. And it was really interesting because I saw women really struggle talking about money, and through my own journey of working in financial services–my mom was a financial advisor, I’m married to a financial advisor–I’m like, women need to get more comfortable talking about money, because, as an HR person, I saw how this was a detriment to them in the hiring process.

Kelli Thompson: I eventually became an executive coach, and I talk about money, yes, but that’s part of the bigger, overall picture of what we talk about in terms of career and leading and confidence. But it’s never lost on me that I went from wanting to major in the easiest thing to talk about, which is the weather, to now really being an advocate to, we need to get comfortable talking about the hardest thing there is to talk about, which is money. And I just have this mantra, I’m like, nothing bad happens when women talk about money. I literally just got a text from my friend who was like, “Hey, this person wants me to come in and consult with them. Here’s what I’m thinking of charging,” and I’m like, “No, you will not. You need to double that, and then some.” And so, you know, nothing bad happens when women are out there making more money that they can invest in their families and their communities, and ultimately to grow themselves, as well.

Hilary Hendershott: I feel like we need some merch, a mug that says “nothing bad happens when women talk about money.” This is great, and I remember my first job. I got three management consulting offers. One was for 41,000, one was for 42,000; it was like 40 or 43, or something, and I went back to the hiring manager, and I said, “Give me 43,” and he said, “No!”

Kelli Thompson: Oh, my goodness.

Hilary Hendershott: Which was, of course, massively discouraging to me for years. So, anyway, what do you think? And I’m always sort of sensitive to the negotiating conversation, because it seems like it comes from a context of, get more from the employer. And me being an employer, I’ve been on both sides of it, right? So I sort of resist the zero-sum game piece of that conversation. But yes, women absolutely need to negotiate for more. And, so let’s talk about the biggest stumbling blocks that you saw with women in terms of starting the negotiation conversation.

Kelli Thompson: Yeah. So I would just say, the biggest stumbling blocks is more of a mindset thing. And so, like, a lot of… one of the myths that women like to believe is, well, it’s just rude to ask. Because I think somewhere along the line we had been brought up that said, you just should just be grateful. You should just be happy you’re getting an offer, it’s very nice.

Hilary Hendershott: You have a paycheck, just take it.

Kelli Thompson: You have a paycheck. And so I think we just internalize this belief that it’s rude to ask. And even now when I’m coaching women, I hear that all the time, like, “Are you sure I should ask? Gosh! I don’t want to turn anybody off. I don’t want them to think I’m not grateful for the offer.” I’m like, this literally has nothing to do with that. This is a business transaction, and what I can tell folks is like, number one, let’s just think about all those messages that you heard growing up about, “It’s rude to ask” and ask yourself: Did my male family members also receive that message? And the answer that I usually get is, “No.” This is something that men talk about. And what I also remind folks, too, is, remember, when I was an HR person, and all my HR people would talk about this, like, we expect you to negotiate. Talking about money for us as HR people, I still, this is the perfect analogy. I still remember my first job as a bank teller, and I had thousands of dollars in cash in my drawer, and I remember opening my cash drawer and I’m like, “Whoa!” I was like, “Look at all this money!” Because I’m 19 right, and there’s like $100 bills in there, and I’m like, “Oh, my God!”

Hilary Hendershott: Okay, be honest. Did you fantasize about taking it home?

Kelli Thompson: I mean, you think about that right? You’re like, “I could do a lot with this money.” But then, by your third day, you’re like, “Look at all this paper in this drawer that I have to count.” That’s how it is with HR folks. At first, talking about money is awkward, and then honestly, by your third or fourth salary negotiation, you’re like, “Okay, and this is the part where we talk about the money.” We expect you to negotiate. For us, talking about money is like talking about the weather, so do not let us down. We expect you to negotiate. I think that’s like the mindset thing is, is really one of the biggest starting stumbling blocks.

Hilary Hendershott: Tell me, because, okay. So when I have taught negotiations in the past, and I’m not an expert negotiator on every front, but the big thing is, if you want to win the negotiation, have the other person say the first number, right? And so, what words can a candidate use who really wants to negotiate? Let’s say she wants 250 in compensation, and they’ve offered her 210. What are the exact words you would have her use to enter into that conversation? And of course I don’t think she should start at 250, right? She should probably start at 270 or something. Tell me.

Kelli Thompson: Yeah, I would enter into that conversation long before you’re getting a salary offer. So what I tell folks is, let’s use salary transparency laws to your advantage. So many jobs now, and in fact, states, are requiring organizations to post ranges. So what I really encourage folks to do is on the initial screening call, like, let’s ask a question first that says, “What is the salary range for this position?” if it’s not posted. Or you could say, “I’m confirming that the salary range for this position is between 225 and 275. Is that correct?” Another question you could ask yourself is, what would cause the employer to pay on the upper end of that salary range? What are you looking for? Because now you’re starting to get a sense of, okay, what is this company’s compensation philosophy? They’ve got 225 to 275. But where are they? When are they going to be likely to pay on the upper end of that band? You know, what sort of qualifications are they looking for? What sort of internal constraints are they working with? This is just starting to get you some decent information.

Kelli Thompson: Because here’s the thing. People know that interviewing for a job takes so much time, not only from the employer, but from the person that’s applying. And if you are wanting 250, and their highest number is 195, let’s find that out in that 15 min screening call, so that no more time is wasted. We can fail fast here. And that’s what I really encourage folks to do, and I know, as an HR person, I was always very upfront with salary ranges, and then, when I was on the other end, I always asked that question first. Because I’m like, let’s not waste our time, get to the end, and, like, this is not going to work. However, if you do get to the end, I’m hoping that that salary conversation has happened in the beginning, and let’s say that… you know, you were saying, “I am looking for a range between, let’s say, 225 and 250. And here’s the reasons why I believe that I deserve that number, is because I’ve accomplished A, B and C, which can help your organization accomplish X, Y, and Z, which is what you’re looking for.” They come back to you at 210. You say, “You know, one of the things that we’ve been talking about in the good negotiation is, I’m really looking for a range between 225 and 250. And here are the reasons why I believe this is aligned with market value, and why I believe that I can bring that to the role. I’m wondering if we can continue this discussion and get closer to the range I’m looking for.”

Hilary Hendershott: I love the scripting. Very graceful. And so you’re also seeding the salary conversation, kind of leading it as you progress through the conversations that are the interviews. And okay, so in the example you’re talking about, because of course, you worked in organizations with an HR team and your candidates are interviewing with executives along the way. Are they also talking about comp in other interviews, or just with you?

Kelli Thompson: Typically… that’s a great question. So typically, comp is discussed many times on the initial screening call, right? Because you’re just talking to that recruiter that’s just like, hey… I’m vetting out Hilary, you know, does she have a pulse? Would she be good? All those sorts of things, right, are we a good fit? So typically salary is discussed in that conversation. Salary is typically not discussed when you have interviews with your peers, right? Because lots of times, if you’re interviewing for an executive position, you’re going to interview with the hiring manager, and then other folks you might be working with. Salary is not coming up when you’re talking with those other folks, but I have seen and heard many times salary does come up when you’re talking to that hiring manager. And I think it is appropriate just to confirm, “I was talking to the HR recruiter, and it appears as though the salary range for this position is 225 to 275. I’m curious, you know, what is your budget looking like? And what is required of someone to meet that 250 to 275 upper range?” I mean, that’s a perfectly good question to ask the hiring manager, because it’s typically the hiring manager that has the budget for that position.

Hilary Hendershott: Right, it’s coming out of their budget.

Kelli Thompson: Correct. Yep. And so I would say, anytime you’re talking to the recruiter, anytime you’re talking to the actual hiring manager… those are the appropriate people in which we are having a conversation about compensation.

Hilary Hendershott: I think if somebody asked me a question like that, if I were interviewing them, it would also demonstrate ambition. Right? You want to be more valuable? Great, I’ll tell you what it’s gonna take to be more valuable, right? And then I’m happy to pay for it. Okay, and so you said something really interesting. You started talking about reasons why you believe, as the candidate, that you should garner that type of compensation. Talk about, and I know as an employer, of course, we’re no longer allowed to ask what you used to earn, so that is not supposed to be the foundation for what people earn. What kind of bad thinking do people get into about the types of reasoning conversations to justify a salary ask?

Kelli Thompson: So I’m glad that you clarified that because it’s either 13 or 26 states have passed the law where you cannot ask for their previous salary history. I live in Nebraska, and I just want folks to know that I have avidly written my Senator that they need to ban that from job applications. So I think we should start here. You may not be living in a state where there is a ban on your previous salary history. And I want to talk about why. Because what organizations have found is that traditionally, women and people of color have been underpaid. And so let’s just say that you have two really qualified candidates. You’ve got John, the white guy, okay, and Sally, or you know, some other candidate of color. They might both be equally qualified. You’re like, ooo, you know, for John, you know, we have to pay 150,000. But we could get Sally, and I bet we could only pay her 90. So it’s very unintentional. People aren’t intentionally trying to underpay people, but what they’re looking at and saying is, we could give her a raise beyond what she was already making, and she’ll feel good about it. And then we are saving money. Quote unquote. Again, this is not what…

Hilary Hendershott: Everyone’s a bargain shopper.

Kelli Thompson: Everyone’s a bargain shopper. This is just anchoring bias, that’s all it is. And so this is a way to remove anchoring bias, because the question that we should be asking is, “Is this job paying what the market demands it should pay?” So when you talk about okay, what things should we not bring into a negotiation? Let’s just start with what things we should. So, number one, the good thing with salary transparency laws is we could go out to Linkedin. We can go to, you know, other job posting sites and just get a good sense of, if I’m applying for a business analyst job in the Midwest, what’s it paying? And make sure that you dial down to your city because I’m gonna tell you that Omaha is not gonna pay you as well as San Francisco. Okay, so let’s not use San Francisco data or Portland data or Seattle data. And so let’s just look and see, what is the market paying for my position? And let’s use that good data to see what that looks like. You can also look at State Bureau of Labor statistics wages; state wage estimate system wages.

Kelli Thompson: The other thing that you should take a look at is your accomplishments, so that you can actually say to that hiring leader, “You know what, you are looking for A, B and C in this role. Well, I’ve done A, B and C, and here’s the results that I got from doing A, B and C, and I can bring this to your organization. And here’s the type of results that I can create for you.” Because now we’re talking real value. Because organizations care about really just three things. They care about money, making it or saving it. They care about risk, reducing it, and they care about change, leading it. So as you’re having that conversation, you can really quantify your value to say, “I’ve done these things, and this will help your organization make money, save money, reduce risk, lead change, accomplish all these goals you’re looking for.” So those are the things that we really want to use in a negotiation is, what is the market data? What’s being paid? What is my value? And how do I contribute to the organization? What we should not be using, which sadly, has been done in the past, and I know people who have actually heard things like this come out of someone’s mouth is, we should pay them more because they have five kids at home. I’ve been on the other end of a negotiation where somebody said, “You know what, I really want my wife to stay home. And so I really need this amount.” And I’m like, that’s so admirable that you want your wife to stay home, but we…

Hilary Hendershott: Not relevant to me.

Kelli Thompson: And I think, you know, folks in good faith forget that organizations have pay parity, right? So like, if we could make the argument that you know, we need to pay Hilary more because she has six kids. Well, that’s gonna create a lot of inequity across the organization, right? Because that’s just not really…

Hilary Hendershott: People would just be having kids, asking for raises.

Kelli Thompson: Yeah, asking for raises. Exactly. So we don’t want to use our life situations. We don’t want to use family situations. We don’t want to use personal situations. And so when you’re in a negotiation, you really want to tie it to that value that you’re going to bring to the business, and what you can do to generate the business that is… what you can do for the business to generate the results that they’re looking for that deserve the upper end of that salary.

Hilary Hendershott: So it sounds to me like we’re talking about really sitting down and scripting and practicing those kind of points. I mean, you’re sort of articulating your resume, right?

Kelli Thompson: Absolutely.

Hilary Hendershott: Positioning yourself at the top of the pay range. Okay, let’s talk about a person who’s just really… maybe they’re making a career change. Or maybe they just really feel like they’re getting out of a confidence rut. And they want to… Kelli, I want to, I mean, in three years, I’d love to triple my income. What kinds of actions can they take? How can they break from the frame, from the mold of that old low compensation?

Kelli Thompson: Oh my gosh, okay, so that’s such a big question. How can I triple my compensation? The majority of my clients are corporate employees. So I just want to talk about this for a second. It is, unless you are severely underpaid and you’re going to go to another organization, and they are going to right size your pay, and you’re going to get promoted three times in the next three years, it is probably unlikely that in corporate, you are going to triple your income. Unless you have some tremendous incentive or upside. I’m not to say you can’t do it. Everything is possible. It’s just that you’re working against a system that just really isn’t set up for that. So I want you to start thinking about something differently. And this is something I talk to a lot of my clients about, because we are in a new era of gig work. We are in a new era in which you can promote and socialize and be out on social media with your own intellectual property. And so, if you want to start thinking about tripling your income, I want you to stop thinking of your entire identity as, “I’m the Vice President of Business Analytics for ABC Corp.”

Hilary Hendershott: You’re going to create your own brand.

Kelli Thompson: Instead, one of the things that I’m really asking folks to do is to uncouple their corporate identity with their leadership and intellectual property identity. And so let me tell you what this looks like. This looks like, I have clients who are CFOs, senior directors of innovation, senior directors of HR, who are loving their corporate life. They have no intention of leaving, but they’ve also discovered, you know what, I can create some of my own intellectual property. And I can go speak at conferences and get paid to do it. Now, all of a sudden, you have this corporate salary, and you’re getting paid 10 grand per speech on the side to not talk about your company–you’re not representing your company–you are talking about your own personal leadership philosophy. I know corporate individuals, even in medicine, who have their own side gig, bringing together conferences for other women in medicine, and that’s a whole other stream of income. You know, and then talking to somebody like yourself, we haven’t even touched savings and investments. Okay? So when you start to think about tripling your income, I just want you to start thinking about, how could I market my skills and my talents; my leadership beliefs; my intellectual property in a way that I can get paid for them outside of my 9 to 5. Because now we’re talking about multiple revenue streams. And that is a much easier way to start to really improve your income versus trying to find a job that’s going to shoot you up the corporate ladder that will ultimately triple your income.

Hilary Hendershott: I love the way you think creatively. Let’s talk about someone who, let’s say they’re making 250, and they receive a job offer for 275. What would you say if she says to you, “I just…I don’t think I should negotiate for more.”

Kelli Thompson: Hmm. Well. I would encourage them to go through the same steps that I went through earlier. And just as a side note, if this feels overwhelming to you, I have a free guide of everything we just talked about on my website. Just go to KellyRaeThompson.com. It’s under the free stuff. Anyways. If she’s thinking, “I don’t know if I should negotiate, because it’s more than what I’m already making.” Let’s go back and say, “That’s great that it’s more. But is it within market? Is it even in market for what that role should be paying?” And then number two, if it is within market, is it still within the appropriate range of the value that you’re going to bring to the organization?

Kelli Thompson: And remember there is so much more to negotiate than salary. So even if they won’t negotiate salary, some of the things that I’m seeing are sign-on bonuses, because maybe you’re going to be losing out on a bonus or stock, or something like that. I’ve also seen a lot of organizations, especially with senior leaders, folks successfully negotiate not tuition reimbursement, but professional development funds. Because a lot of organizations have a tuition reimbursement policy. But they’re saying, “Yes, I’ll take this role. Okay, 275 might be your max. But are you willing to give me a $10,000 a year stipend to go to a conference; to hire a coach; to take a learning and development program?” So yes, I firmly believe that even if the offer is more than what you currently make, you should always negotiate for more, because, most importantly, you want to be paid in market and relevant for the talents, skills, and results that you’re going to bring to that company.

Hilary Hendershott: And I just want to confirm this phrase “in market.” That means a market wage.

Kelli Thompson: A market wage. Yes, correct. You want to be paid in a market wage.

Hilary Hendershott: And so the things people can negotiate… healthcare benefits, PTO, equity compensation. You just mentioned tuition reimbursement, or conference attending reimbursement. What else have you seen people negotiate that’s creative?

Kelli Thompson: Yeah, it’s hard to negotiate benefits. I do want to put that caveat, because typically an employer has a benefit plan. And the benefit plan is the benefit plan is the benefit plan. But what they can negotiate is sometimes flexibility, certain work from home days. PTO to some extent can be negotiated. So many organizations are going to an unlimited PTO policy. So there’s nothing to negotiate there. But at certain levels of leadership I’ve personally and successfully negotiated, you know, hey, I was at this rank of PTO in my old firm, and I was able to get close to that in a new firm, that was beyond the standard offering. Tuition reimbursement is usually standard. But what folks have negotiated, yeah, is those stipends for coaching; for professional development; for conferences. Other things that they can negotiate is… I already said the flexibility and work from home. But I just want you to think about, are there any current benefits that you get at your current organization that organization doesn’t offer? A great place to start is just advocating for them. One of the good examples I’ve seen recently is, I know someone who currently works for an organization that had fertility benefits. Her and her husband wanted to do IVF and the new organization didn’t. And they said, you know what, we don’t. But this gal explained, well, you know, it’s something that you add on, and here’s the company. And they were like, we will look into that for you. They’re like we can’t give it to you on day one. But we’re going to take this to HR and you know, advocate for maybe the next cycle around. So some of these sorts of things you can kind of just bring to their attention, as you’re kind of going through that process.

Hilary Hendershott: Sidebar. What is your opinion of unlimited PTO?

Kelli Thompson: I don’t like it. I might be in the unpopular, but I think a couple of things happen. I know why organizations do it, because they don’t want to have to pay people out PTO when they leave. But I don’t like it because I think it promotes a culture, and the research backs this up–I can’t name who authored the study–that people actually take less vacation.

Hilary Hendershott: And that’s exactly what I’ve heard.

Kelli Thompson: Yeah, they get into this weird mindset of, they don’t want to overuse it. And so then they actually end up under using it. And it actually creates a culture in which people are taking less time off. Because in the old model where you had, I worked up to at some point like 6, 7 weeks. I’m like, I’m gonna use this, because otherwise some policies you lose it, you know, you burn certain, if you don’t use it by a certain time, so you’re like incented to use all that PTO. And so I don’t love them. I’m not a fan.

Hilary Hendershott: No. And I even had someone say organizations who have unlimited PTO feel free to call the employee when they’re on their vacation more. So. Do you ever really get to take time off?

Hilary Hendershott: Let’s talk about something I read in your book, which one of the things I have taught is a framework called The 7 Steps to Wealth, the first step being, Decide. So, of course, your thoughts have power and lead to what you say and what you do, which lead to results in your life. So you have this thing called quantifying the cost of your thoughts. Talk about what had you write about that.

Kelli Thompson: Well, because, when I became an entrepreneur, a very reality-slap-in-the-face happened. So you know, when you work in corporate, your paycheck magically shows up every two weeks, and it’s so great. I mean, like, let’s be real. When you’re in corporate and you have a bad day, and you’re like, you know, I kind of online shopped a little more at work than I should’ve today. You know, you’re still gonna get paid every other Friday, right? So when I went off on my own, I realized how expensive my thoughts were. And here’s what I mean by that.

Kelli Thompson: I, all of a sudden, was scared to promote my products and services. Because what will people think? Oh, my gosh. People are gonna think this is so stupid. I shouldn’t talk about this. If I bring this up, everybody’s gonna blast me on the Internet. I mean just trashy, stupid thoughts. And because, like I had all these ideas to run my business, but all my inner self talk was so critical, and I was so scared to promote that, and actually tell people about it so they could buy it, and I could earn money, it was expensive. It was literally expensive. I wasn’t earning any money, and that was the hugest ah-ha I had as an entrepreneur, I was like, oh, my gosh. Stalling, and all these crappy thoughts are expensive.

Kelli Thompson: They’re expensive to my peace because they make me feel like crap when I’m criticizing myself. They’re expensive to my potential because I’m not going to be able to build this business I want to build. And they’re ultimately expensive to my paycheck, because if I have too much, just inner trash talk,  I’m not promoting my business. I’m not telling people about my programs. And then I’m not making any money, because, you know, the paychecks aren’t showing up magically in my account every other Friday.

Kelli Thompson: And so that’s how I realized, oh, my gosh, this mindset is so expensive. And then it kind of gave me this other ah-ha of how that was prevalent in corporate for me. In that I would kind of withhold, I would procrastinate, I would perfect things, you know, and I would hold back on ideas. But it just didn’t have the same cause and effect, because I still got paid every other Friday. And that was just a huge ah-ha for me, was how expensive my thoughts were, because they were directly impacting the results into my bank account. Because if you don’t promote your stuff as an entrepreneur, you don’t get paid.

Hilary Hendershott: No, you’re your own VP of Sales.

Kelli Thompson: Yeah, that’s correct. Yes.

Hilary Hendershott: So is it fair to assume that you don’t suffer from those expensive thoughts now? And if so, what can you share about how you got from A to B?

Kelli Thompson: Oh, no! I still suffer from them. Here’s the difference. So I actually was giving a presentation on this today. And here’s what I always say. I had to learn to come to grips that doubt is a normal, healthy, human emotion. And it was all of my “but firsts”, like, “Oh, I want to launch this. But first I need to perfect this.” “Oh, I want to do this. But first I need to build a web page.” Like, “Oh, I want to do this. But first, but first, but first…” They were expensive.

Kelli Thompson: And then I realize I’m like, wait a minute, doubt is a normal, healthy human emotion. And of course it’s here. Of course it’s here, because I’m promoting something I care about. Of course I’m feeling doubt and nerves, because this is brand new. This is the edge of my comfort zone. And so I think sometimes people think, oh, when am I going to stop having all my expensive thoughts? When am I going to stop feeling doubt? Never, if you are growing. And I always remind folks, there are people in this world who don’t feel doubt. And my husband and I watch them on Dateline every Friday night with a margarita. Like, they could have benefited from a little more doubt before they took out the insurance policy and murdered their spouse. Like, there are consequences to not feeling doubt. So instead of like, you know, thinking, oh, I just need to stop with my expensive, critical thoughts; I need to stop feeling all this doubt. No. I learned how to take action while also feeling doubt.

Kelli Thompson: So it’s like exchanging your “but first” for “while also.” I can write this Instagram post while also feeling worried that, like people are, gonna think, what are you doing? This is silly. I can launch this new program while also feeling incredibly nervous that not one single person will sign up. Like, I can keep doing these things in my business while also wondering, is this the last person that’s ever gonna hire me? Is this the end? You know, it’s just so normal. But now I just don’t get attached to them. Oh, there it is, trashy thought. I can do the thing while also feeling nervous and doubtful, and that’s been the biggest transformation for me. And I think even my clients that I work with, too, because I would be lying to you if I said you would work with me, and you would never feel doubt, or you know those critical thoughts again. Like you’re human, you’re gonna feel them. It means that you share in the human condition. And that’s actually a good thing.

Hilary Hendershott: So sort of act “as if.” And then, I mean, for me, I have found that sometimes acting “as if”, there are moments of genius. And then I come out of them and I think, I didn’t doubt myself for two whole minutes. That was awesome.

Kelli Thompson: Yeah.

Hilary Hendershott: Perfect. Okay. So I mentioned one of the concepts I found really valuable in your book, talk a little bit about what else people can find in their book that they didn’t hear about today, in your book.

Kelli Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, just skimming across the top of it. The book is called Closing the Confidence Gap. And I really start with, you know, just my own story of how I checked all the boxes in life, thinking that if I checked all the boxes and I did all the things I was supposed to do then I’d be happy and successful. But I actually was really miserable because I had climbed that ladder really well, but that ladder was leaning against the wrong building. And so I really start with helping folks define what they stand for, because if you don’t know what you stand for, what will you settle for?

Kelli Thompson: You’re settling for things and you’re living someone else’s life thinking it’ll make you happy. It is a source of incredible lack of confidence, because you’re just walking around the world feeling resentful all the time. You aren’t even like yourself. We talk about, in the next chapter, the things you and I talked about. I talk a lot about how I advocate for a different approach to executive presence, and how, instead of you know, trying to conform ourselves to this old, outdated, masculine model of executive presence, instead, we really need to show up and speak up in alignment with our values and own those things that we’ve always been called. Like I’ve always been called, I was too direct and used to hide that, and it was so exhausting. Until I figured out, like, oh, well, I can be direct and loving. I can be direct and respectful. I can be direct, and, you know, do this in alignment with my values.

Kelli Thompson: And it really hopefully frees folks up, that they don’t have to fall victim to these likability biases. I talk a lot about how to find your unique genius in your career and build a career around that. I talk a lot about trusting yourself, using your head, and your heart, and your gut to make decisions, so you can stop second guessing yourself all the time. I give folks a framework for advocacy. Not so they can speak up like everyone else, but so they can speak up in a way that aligns with their unique point of view–the point of view that only they can own.

Kelli Thompson: And then we talk about money! So there’s a whole chapter on money. And we talk about the five money conversations folks need to have.

Hilary Hendershott: Oh, yay.

Kelli Thompson: Yeah, which is all about challenging the systems. Talking about your salary, talking about savings. Okay, this is like, you know, your investing. Women need to have these conversations. Talking about support and then talking just about your self talk. And then the last chapter is all about, how do we put all this and get into action, taking small, brave steps.

Kelli Thompson: I think what sets this book apart from maybe other confidence books is, it’s twofold. Number one, I really challenge the systems that result in a woman’s lack of confidence. And talk about how there’s all of these biases that we have to encounter at work, and I wish that we could change the systems. I really wish we could wake up tomorrow and change the pay gap and the likability biases and the unpaid workload of women and all that sort of stuff. But we can’t. So I want to give you tools and strategies so that you can thrive inside of those systems while also advocating for change. And that’s really the tone that I take in the book, is really a both/and approach, because that’s the world that we’re living in right now. It’s this both/and of how we move forward.

Hilary Hendershott: Thank you. So run right out and get your copy on Amazon today. And, Kelli, how do you like to work with clients today?

Kelli Thompson: Yeah, I work with clients usually in three ways. So sometimes they come to me, 1:1 for executive coaching. They want to advance in their career and so that’s what we’re working on. I do have some public programs that I offer in the spring and the fall, and you can find those at KellyRaeThompson.com. The third way that I work with clients is an organization has hired me to come in to speak to their leaders. Whether that’s a women’s conference, or I work with a lot of corporate organizations as well on leadership, and come into their organizations and speak as well.

Hilary Hendershott: Oh, my goodness, I would love to see you speak. Well, thank you so much for being here. I really have enjoyed this conversation. I’m a big fan of any woman promoting getting women into rooms where decisions are made. Let me ask you my signature question. If your money were writing you a love note, what would it be thanking you for?

Kelli Thompson: If my money wrote me a love note, it would be thanking me for believing that its energy was generous, and not scarce.

Hilary Hendershott: You have faith in your money. I love it. Alright. Thank you for being here on Love, your Money^®. I’ve enjoyed this conversation, and enjoy the rest of your day.

Kelli Thompson: Thank you.

Hilary Hendershott: Take care.