182 | How to Reprogram Your Money Mind with Nina Cashman

Hilary Hendershott: Hi, there, profit bosses. I’m your host, Hilary Hendershott. And first, I just want to say thank you. We’ve been enjoying tremendous success on the iTunes charts, and you’ve been giving me some amazing love in the ratings and reviews. So, thank you. I could not do it without you. And if you love this show so far, hey, just click share and send it to a gal pal who could use some inspiration to find out more about why I created Profit Boss Radio. Just click back in your podcast app or an iTunes to the very first episode, which, because of the way iTunes organizes things, might look like the very last episode, but it’s called Welcome to Profit Boss Radio.

I want to start today’s episode with a story, and I know that this being just the introduction to this episode, it’s going to be longer than usual, but I’m really going to get really real with you today and authentic, and I’m just asking you to hang in here with me, okay. So, this story is about yours truly. You may already know my original money story that has to do with overspending and debt and finally, making a decision that I was going to rewire my money mind and then turning everything around, but then making it my mission and my business to empower people all around me, especially women, to have everything that they want in their lives.

And if you want to know more about that story, you can watch my TEDx talk on my YouTube channel or read about me on the about page on my website, but the journey is never, ever over. And this story just happened just a little bit ago because when I launched the Hilary Hendershott brand in 2014, I took the revenues from my wealth management business because I’ve been in that business for a very long time now. And I use that money to fund the launch of the new business. And as such, my husband and I agreed that I wouldn’t take a salary from the business for two years or up to two years.

And in retrospect, the impact of that on me should have been obvious, knowing that one of my money operating systems is that money makes me valuable. And a money operating system is just a simple script or belief that dictates your money life. And if you want to know more about those, again, you can watch my TEDx talk, or I publish about money operating systems all over the Internet so you can just Google it. And also, I’ll have a whole episode dedicated to determining your money OS in just a few weeks.

So, one of my money operating systems is that money makes me valuable. And even though I chose to go without earned income while I was launching this business, and it was 100% in the plan to build the business, the only thing my subconscious is telling me is that I’m worthless, but I try to intellectualize my way out of it. I mean, here I am, a wealth coach and I’m speaking to groups all over the country about how to unwind that money programming, but what I couldn’t do is really communicate openly with my husband about how I’m feeling. So, we keep separate bank accounts. I mean, we got married fairly late in life, and he already had his bank systems, and I had mine. So, basically, there’s just no money coming into my bank account. And I use my business credit card for a lot of things, but you can’t avoid having personal expenses. So, pretty soon, the balance starts to get below that mental marker of where I’m comfortable with it. And you realize I’m humbly telling you this story, just so you know, it happens to me, too.

And instead of saying to my lovely and supportive husband, “Hey, how are we going to deal with getting the spending cash?” I just start using the one credit card in my wallet that’s attached to his bank accounts. And I mean, I know he can see the charges. I’m not being covert necessarily, but I’m also not talking with him about it. And it goes on like this, but in the background, I kind of feel like I’m a criminal, but this all happened so seamlessly, and months go by and I’m just hoping he won’t mention the fact that I’m using his credit card.

So, one day, I wake up and I really fully realize what I’m doing, what I’m doing to myself, and that I’m completely entrenching my own money operating system. And I’m feeling bad about myself, but mostly, I’m just completely out of communication with him. And it’s a little hypocritical for me to hold myself out as a money expert when I’m not behaving like one. And so, I say to my husband, “Hey, can we talk? I’ve been using your credit card,” and he says, “I know.” And I’ll just make a long story short here, but the conversation that ensued turned out to be really, really incredible. I mean, it was painful for me at first, but as a result, we finally decided to share bank accounts and we went and opened joint accounts at a new bank. And now, we’re having money dates every two weeks on Sundays. And we’re looking at financial aggregation tools so that we can see all of our accounts. I mean, we have so many accounts between the two of us in one place at one time.

And we finally took a look at his retirement accounts after many, many years of him not reviewing the investments. And we got to make some better choices. And the whole thing turned out to be a big win, but it took me going through that time period of discomfort and really sneakiness and then revealing myself like coming clean, and then us collaborating to create something better. And I’m happy now and I feel a little vulnerable sharing that with you, that story, but I just keep it real here at Profit Boss Radio. And this story really demonstrates the power of the money operating system. Those money beliefs are so deeply entrenched that it can be a real pitfall. And having the power to truly acknowledge and alter your money beliefs is so incredibly valuable. And profit bosses, that leads me directly to today’s amazing guest.

Nina Cashman is an expert at helping her clients rewire their beliefs. There’s a point at which this can really become very deep psychological work, and that’s what Nina’s expertise is in. She doesn’t just focus on money, but that’s what she’s willing to talk with me about today. So, let me tell you a little bit about Nina. Nina is a trained and certified coach. She founded a company called Pave Your Way, where she helps people in career growth and development. She trains leaders and she does team building and even individual branding. She has 17 years of marketing experience and that really helps her clients build their individual brands.

So, Nina is also a trainer and a workshop facilitator for an organization called IPEC, which is the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching. And she’s a master practitioner in the Energy Leadership Index assessment, which is something she’s really proud of, and we really delve into here in this episode. And Nina coined this phrase of being a paver. She calls her people that she works with pavers, and a paver is someone who paves their own way. And Nina truly, truly believes that anyone can accomplish anything if they develop their own self-supporting belief system. So, profit bosses, today’s episode is all about the incredible power of beliefs and how to make your mind work more in the way you want it to.

[INTERVIEW]

Hilary Hendershott: Let’s have at it. Nina Cashman, welcome to Profit Boss Radio.

Nina Cashman: Thanks for having me, Hilary.

Hilary Hendershott: I’m so excited about this conversation. And when I found you online on Daily Worth, I thought, this woman speaks my language. And I saw a piece that you put together about changing beliefs. And I think it was specifically about changing money beliefs. And I thought this is the thing that I’ve been trying to convince women and my clients and profit bosses everywhere that they can do. And so, I thought, I’ve got to get Nina on the show. And just in our pre-interview conversations, I know that you’re going to have a ton of value for my audience. So, I want to just get right started and I want to ask about your history. So, take us back to the beginning. Tell us what your financial life was like as a child. How did you grow up into money? What were your childhood experiences? And how did that go for you?

Nina Cashman: So, when I grew up, I had a dad who was the greatest dad in the world. Of course, a lot of us idolized our parents. I certainly did. My dad, though, was old enough to be my grandfather and he called himself a Depression baby. He was literally born at the tail end of the Depression. He actually passed away when I was in my early 30s. I think I was right around 30 at the age of 82. And you can imagine that he came from a very old school world when it came to money and when it came to career. His philosophy was that you don’t take a lot of risk, that you work hard for your money and what you earn, because he came from a world where it was taken away and lived through a great struggle, not just with his family, but that was happening in the nation.

So, I grew up in that type of household where if there was mold on the cheese, man, you slice that off, you didn’t throw the cheese out. If there was like maybe just a little snippet of butter on the butter dish, you waited to use that before you got a new stick of butter out. So, I guess it’s safe to say that my childhood background really came from a perception of being very conservative with money and not taking a lot of risk when it came to money and really holding on to whatever you had because the thought was you could lose it at any point. And I would say also that I experienced with my family a lot of hardship. I witnessed my dad go from a very successful place in his career to a place where towards the end of his career, when he got older, where it was very hard for him to find work, and that impacted the way we lived in addition to my parents getting a divorce. So, there is a big hodgepodge, but I would say that the underlying theme is I grew up with this idea that earning money is somewhat of a struggle and that the only way to really get it is to work really, really, really hard. And I suppose that was from what I witnessed most of my life.

Hilary Hendershott: And so, what did your father do for work?

Nina Cashman: So, at the time when I was born, I was actually born overseas in Belgium, he was, I think, like a senior vice president over operations for a company called Air Products. So, he was a Harvard graduate, really smart guy, had been successful in business as a consultant and then in this company. And then a lot of chain of events happened which caused him to lose that job. And everything changed in our family. So, I was still very young at the time. So, most of my perception when I became aware as a child was seeing more of the struggle side and hearing about the glory days and not necessarily understanding what the glory days were really like.

Hilary Hendershott: And so, how did things change for you specifically in the home after your dad lost his job? What are some of the things you had to do without? Or how did they handle that?

Nina Cashman: Well, a lot happened. At that time, that was a bit before my awareness, I hear stories, but my dad had to go out and find a job while my mom, who is German, so it wasn’t an American citizen even at the time, went to go live with his aunt in California. And so, we didn’t even have a home yet because he was looking for a job somewhere in the nation. And we ended up landing in New Jersey. At the time, he did find a good job. When I remember or have awareness really of my parents’ struggle is I would say really after their divorce. And that was they got divorced when I was five. So, I was fairly aware then.

 And at that point, we had moved to Colorado, and my dad had still had some struggles with jobs, and then they got a divorce. And my mom had never worked in this country before. And so, suddenly, she was this European woman who had never written a check on her own, raising three kids and having to get a job. And the first job that she got was as a cleaning woman. And I always have heard this story because she had this big rock on her finger from the glory days. I would say a bigger than normal rock. And she was once repairing or opening up, changing maybe the bag in the vacuum, and she couldn’t quite figure it out. So, the owner of the house came to help her and saw this giant rock on her finger and was really confused that my mom was cleaning her house, but that’s kind of the dichotomy of the world, of the two worlds. One was this world of a lot of abundance and success and wealth. And then suddenly, we were thrown in this world where we had to be very, very tight, and my mom had to basically start at the bottom of the totem pole and work her way up as a non-American citizen at that point.

Hilary Hendershott: Well, so that’s really interesting. And actually, there’s a large body of work that’s been studied and written about the impacts of the Great Depression on people. It had almost PTSD kind of impacts and it actually caused some overly conservative or what you might call detrimental financial behavior because people just didn’t trust the system or the markets or even banks at all for too long, right? Their mistrust eventually was unjustified, although it was very justified, right after what happened, happened. So, it’s really interesting to hear you talk about the impacts of that landing on you.

Nina Cashman: Right. Yeah, I mean, there is a zeitgeist, I think that is Hegel, the philosopher, who writes about the zeitgeist, which means the ghost of time and how that passes between generations. And of course, that’s naturally going to happen. I mean, our parents influence us. And I would say certainly, and it’s interesting even right now to talk about this as you ask these questions because it really paints a picture for me of ahhh, no wonder. Yeah, this is where some of my previous limiting beliefs around money, and sometimes they still exist. They still show up for me, but I just have a better awareness now, having done what I’ve done, coaching people for when a belief is limiting and holding you back.

Hilary Hendershott: And then, as a parent yourself and now, being a conscious person, it’s sort of incumbent upon you to choose which lessons you’re going to pass on, even though it might start happening subconsciously, right? Like what messages am I giving my kids? Even though I don’t want that to be the reality, it’s what I think or thought is reality. And so, how’s it coming out in my speaking?

Nina Cashman: Exactly.

Hilary Hendershott: And so, what are some of the specific things? Do you remember some of the things your parents would say about money or some of the things that were true about money? I used to always hear money doesn’t grow on trees. Any sort of superstitions like that?

Nina Cashman: Yeah, I mean, I heard that very often from my mom because I just didn’t understand. It’s funny, once I remember asking her, yeah, really, can I get a new outfit because I was always getting my sisters hand-me-downs? And by the time they made it to me because she was five years old, sometimes they just weren’t in style anymore. And so, I really wanted to get some new clothes. And my mom was like, yeah, we just don’t have the money right now. And my reaction was, well, just write a check. And she was like, well, there has to be money in the bank for me to write a check. And I just didn’t get it. I didn’t connect to that at all, but it was often, when I was looking to have things, we didn’t always have it.

And I think that changed. I got to give a lot of credit to my mom. I mean, she really worked herself back up. And it’s amazing, actually, that she did what she did with three kids and raising three kids. I mean, I have two kids now with the most supportive husband in the world and a nanny and great teachers and great friends who can help, and neighbors. I mean, she was raising three kids and working 12-hour days. So, I also associated, like I said before, not only does money grow on trees, it only grows if you work your butt off, was my perspective. And that that really stuck with me and it impacted me. And sometimes it still does. Sometimes I still catch myself in it.

Hilary Hendershott: So, then, how did that belief system translate into your first working years, your early 20s, or your first jobs? What do you find yourself doing? And how is money going for you?

Nina Cashman: Well, you know what’s so funny? I’m a firm believer in the law of attraction, which is like energy attracts like energy. So, it’s no wonder that in my first gigs, I found people who were workaholics as my leaders, and they were brilliant. And in retrospect, I’m so grateful for all the opportunities I had because being a hard worker condenses a lot of experience or compresses it into a short amount of time. So, I feel like I was able to experience a lot of big successes at an early age due to the fact that I was working for really hard workers. I mean, we got stuff done. We got stuff done in a very short period of time which just afforded us more experiences.

The thing, though, is, of course, I drew in that because my mentality was that you don’t just work hard, you have to really break your back almost to the point where it’s unhealthy. And so, I found most people and I worked for a lot of them. And I think on the one side, I’m very grateful for that. And on the other side, I had to do a lot of rewiring later in my life and understand that there is a way to be very, very productive and also be healthy and also have time for other things in your life and people in your life that you care about outside of work.

Hilary Hendershott: So, when does this level of awareness start to come to you? Or how did that happen that you come into a realization, hey, actually, maybe this isn’t the only way to earn and live and think about money?

Nina Cashman: Well, it’s funny, the first time I realized it was when I moved back from the East Coast to Colorado, which is where I’m from, and I continued working in a gig that I loved. And by the way, I love to work. There’s a side of me that just loves to work.

Hilary Hendershott: Sure. And what are you doing for work at this point?

Nina Cashman: At that time, I was an event marketing, so I was doing business development for an event and experiential marketing agency. So, yeah, I was in the world of deadlines, which is what marketing is, and it was client services as well. So, we were on the agency side. So, there were a lot of deadlines, a lot of demands, a lot of travel around the country, working for big name brands, consumer packaged goods primarily. And because I wanted to move back to Colorado, they let me open up a “Denver office,” which was basically my studio apartment, but anyway, I was working my butt off.

And as I started to make a lot of friends who are my age at the time, and here I was, I guess, early to mid-20s, I mean, people thought I was crazy. They could not understand that someone could possibly commit that much of their time to work. I mean, I was never able to go out. The middle of the week was like a school night to me because I had to wake up and work the next morning. And usually, I was working till insane hours anyway. And I remember a couple of people told me, yeah, you’re the hardest working person in Denver, which clearly, is not true because there’s a lot of hard-working people in Denver but…

Hilary Hendershott: Not an award you want to win, though.

Nina Cashman: No, it’s not an award you want to win. And also, I happen to live in a great place where having a hobby is just as important to the type of person you are as your career. That’s how Denver is. Oftentimes, the first question you get is when someone says, what do you do? They don’t necessarily mean what do you do for work. They actually are interested in your interests. And I didn’t have that. I didn’t have that at all. So, that was my first awareness is like, wow, I take things a little too seriously for someone in their early 20s. And then I would say the biggest thing that really changed the way I look at it is having kids. And that’s more recent. Four years ago, having a child and recognizing that I was not prioritizing my life in the way I would like to prioritize it was just a game-changer.

Hilary Hendershott: So, this is really interesting. And so, tell me about the shift because you seem to have so much learning, and your conversation around beliefs and the impact of beliefs is very robust. So, I’m unclear how we go from event planning and having a kid, which I get the reprioritization, but then how do you transition to what you’re doing now?

Nina Cashman: So, I have, number 1, been in marketing for 17 years. So, I was able to, through those experiences, work with a lot of different people and work with a lot of different teams. And in that role, I really realized, number 1, that I love working with people. That was actually what I loved most about what I did. I’ll always be a marketer at heart, and I think there’s actually a lot of parallel between making a brand or a product successful and making a person successful. There are really a lot of the same 101 basics that can make that happen, and that’s very translatable, but also just working with people and recognizing that when you can empower someone to be their best, and they really can bring that out into the world, that’s when you’re leading a really powerful team. And that’s so rewarding. So, that’s how I made the transition into coaching and then started working on my certification. So, did I answer your question, Hilary? Are you…

Hilary Hendershott: I think so. And you have two certifications. Which are they?

Nina Cashman: So, I got my certification in coaching from IPEC, and then also, I’m certified in what’s called the Energy Leadership Index, and that’s an assessment from IPEC that administers it. And what it does is it measures different attitudes or levels of energy. And what’s interesting about that assessment is it’s not a personality assessment, it’s an attitudinal assessment, which means you can shift very quickly. When you recognize that you have a certain attitude, say that you’re existing in a victim mentality and you’re aware of that and you’re recognizing how much that suppresses your behavior, then most rational people will shift it. And that’s what that assessment measures.

Hilary Hendershott: Well, so much to ask. And I mean, there are just so many places I want to go with that. So, this is great and this is really the meat of it. And so, let me start from the beginning. Based on your experience, your training, I mean, and I can tell you bring a lot of your own research and real-life experience to what you do if you were to be presented with a client, a client came to you and said, I’m suffering in the area of money, like, for example, there’s money coming in, but I suffer around it. I have stress and anxiety. I fight with my husband. I’m never sure that the money is going to stay around. What’s your thinking? Where do you apply your frameworks? And where do you start with someone like that?

Nina Cashman: Absolutely. So, where I start with most clients is really digging into their belief of who they think they are. And that has a lot to do with some of the initial questions that you’ve asked me. You’ve done a great job coaching me by asking me questions about, wow, where did that come from? So, you have this belief. Tell me more about how that resonated with you as a child. And for someone listening to this, what they saw or heard unfold was you helping me to acknowledge that I have a belief that might be blocking me, might be blocking me from success, financial success in some way, and then also helping me to understand where that came from.

And in doing so, you kind of created sort of a therapeutic process which enables me to understand and have compassion for myself that, wow, no wonder I feel that way. I have to give myself actually a bit of credit for feeling this way because I’ve lived through a lifetime of witnessing things that did nothing but validate that belief from a very young age. And what I call that is an energy block. There are a few different forms of energy blocks. They show up as limiting beliefs, interpretations, assumptions, or just inner critic, something that’s criticizing you, a voice in your head that criticizes you.

If someone shows up with any type of block, whether it’s a financial block to financial success or success in general, what we have to do first is delve into who they believe themselves to be. And once we can recognize what those thoughts are, we start to raise awareness in the same way you helped me to raise awareness as to where some of my beliefs are coming from. And when that awareness is there, you can start looking at how you’re showing up. So, shifts happen between who you think you are and how you’re doing things. And the reason being is thoughts generate feelings. Feelings are the most powerful fuel we have. The bus is not going to move without the fuel of feelings. We act our actions spring from the way we feel. And then when we act in a certain way, it creates the results in our life, which in turn becomes our reality. And so, in order to break the paradigm of anything happening in our world, we have to really address who we think we are and we have to start exploring our thoughts in the same way you just did with me.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay, so exploring your thoughts, and then is there also a modality or a thought that most people act in reaction to feelings which come chronologically after thoughts which are made up of language, right? So, do you subscribe to the thought process, the thinking that if you can subvert that cycle? So, if I can act in the absence of feelings through consciousness and admitting that it does take activation energy, it takes something for a human being to train him or herself to act in the absence of feelings. I mean, I tell you, I make phone calls almost every day that I don’t want to make, but I’m conscious about it. And I know that those phone calls are in service of the greater good. That rejection in the moment isn’t the same as dying in real life, and I do this all the time where I start talking and I talk too long, and it’s hard for me to wrap it up, but have you ever prescribed that kind of coaching, like, just take action?

Nina Cashman: Absolutely. In fact, there’s a quote I love by David J. Schwartz, who wrote a book called The Magic of Thinking Big. And he has a great line in there that’s pretty simple. And that’s that action cures fear. Here’s the deal, though. By taking action, you are generating new feelings. 

Hilary Hendershott: Right.

Nina Cashman: Right. You’re generating…

Hilary Hendershott: You’re creating a new loop.

Nina Cashman: Exactly. You’re creating a new loop. That’s exactly it. So, the thing is, though, we’re feeling, even if we think we’re not feeling, even if we’re feeling numb, numb is still a feeling. And so, sometimes you’re absolutely right. Sometimes the best prescription is, look, I know you don’t necessarily want to, I know you think that this is a big, scary monster because the more you procrastinate, the more that’s what it becomes, but if you just go look at it, you’ll see that it’s not nearly as scary as you thought. And sometimes, truly, all it does take is action. And that action is going to start generating new feelings well beyond the fear that’s holding you back.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay, I love that. So, there’s maybe a two-pronged approach. It’s like the therapeutic context that you started with, which is let’s introspect, let’s explore the history of those strongly held beliefs. And for some people, those strongly held beliefs can naturally start unwinding simply in the process of discovering where they came from.

Nina Cashman: Yep, I just do think, though, what I’ve noticed with my clients, it’s very hard to stimulate the actual behavior of action if they’re not really seeing how their current situation is holding them back. If they’re not aware of that, you as a coach would be less inclined to get their buy-in to actually act.

Hilary Hendershott: Well, certainly, I mean…

Nina Cashman: So, they might say, yeah, I’ll do it. And then here you are a week later checking in, doing an accountability check, and it still hasn’t gotten done. Why? Because maybe they’re not fully aware of how much those feelings, those initial feelings are dragging them down.

Hilary Hendershott: Well, I assume someone who’s going to take the time to listen to a show like this has an awareness or at least a desire to come to the table and consider taking new actions or exploring old, strongly held beliefs. I mean, it’s just like about marketing and sales. I mean, you want to be in the business of selling a product that people already want to buy. You don’t want to be in the business of selling a product you have to convince people that they need and then convince them to buy it from you, right? So, I’m with you on that. Absolutely.

And then, when you and I were talking before we started recording, we were talking about what it takes to shift beliefs. And you said some people have a better– you used the phrase learning dexterity when it comes to recognizing all limiting beliefs. And I’m wondering if you have any thoughts on what kind of people are better at recognizing limiting beliefs and letting go of them. I mean, I thought sort of through categorizing people and I have this idea that there are some people who are open to the power of suggestion and some people who aren’t. Like when you see a hypnotist hypnotizes people from the audience, I don’t know if that’s real, okay, but one in ten people will take the power of suggestion, will actually be hypnotized and start making a fool of themselves on the stage. Do you think it’s the same people? And is that learned? Or is that nature or nurture? What do you think about that?

Nina Cashman: That’s funny. I’ve always wondered too if that’s real or if someone’s been planted in the audience. So, what I’ve noticed is I think it’s a little different because usually like you said when people are attracted to a show like this or have taken the initial steps to call a coach or to call a financial expert to help them, they, in turn, they’ve reached out for help. So, they’ve already exposed some level of openness to receiving help. And that is a big step, actually, that deserves a lot of applauds because sometimes that takes a lot of courage to admit that you actually need help because you’re being vulnerable at that point.

So, then, after that happens, I really think that what you need to be is just commit it, to doing the work. It’s one thing to sit here and have an awesome conversation and philosophize about concepts that are very logical and easy to grasp. And it’s a whole other thing to actually do the work between sessions. And I say this even for myself, man. I mean, I can’t tell you how much I often learn from my clients and how sometimes I catch myself falling off the wagon of doing the work because doing the work is hard, doing the work means that you sometimes have to challenge old beliefs that have been with you forever and have organized your entire life, but when you’re committed to doing the work, you really start to see shifts and changes. And in doing the work, you have to be really open to expressing your vulnerability because sometimes when you try out new things, it’s nerve-wracking or it’s a little shaky at first when you start out, and you have to kind of be open to putting yourself through the start of a process. And then, I also think you just have to be really open and have a flexible mind to challenge some of your old assumptions and be open to the idea that there are multiple ways of looking at things, and your way is not the only way.

Hilary Hendershott: And I talked about that specifically. I talk about that when I speak publicly, it’s like once you can unseat certainty in your mind, I think that’s a powerful moment is when a human being admits this thing I’ve always lived, like is true might not be true.

Nina Cashman: Absolutely.

Hilary Hendershott: That’s a very powerful moment. And I think in my industry, such data heads are attracted to financial services. So, historically, we’re known as bean counters or calculator wielders. And so, we come at the problem or the topic or the client with this will do X, Y, and Z kind of prescription coaching. And for the people who are already on that side of the chasm, fine and good. All well and good, right?

Nina Cashman: Right.

Hilary Hendershott: But then there’s this whole body of people who are left on the other side of the chasm because they’re hampered by limiting beliefs. And that leaves them with a perspective that doesn’t make those actions reasonable. They don’t call to them given that perspective. And yet they, in my opinion, desperately want. Let me call this a financial success or healing or peace of mind or freedom. I mean, if you look out in the world, I would say most of humanity has some kind of struggle in the area of money, no matter if they have a little or a lot. So, I just think it’s about time that these coaches with conversations like the ones we’re having now, get integrated into the process for many clients.

Nina Cashman: I love that, actually, because really so much of the outward tried and true to your point is only going to be absorbed when people have dug into a much deeper layer of awareness. If they are so blocked by a belief as to whether or not they can be financially successful, it doesn’t matter how many 101 basics for success you give them or tools or templates. It’s not going to sink in until they’ve allowed themselves to be open to a new reality.

Hilary Hendershott: Right. And I’ll share with you just a brief example from my client’s work and then I’ll ask you to talk about the specific exercises you have people do. I had a client one time who– this just gives you an example of the kind of thought processes that get created that physically block money from coming into our lives. She was a business owner and she really experienced being rich and successful when the checks would come in, literally. So, checks would come in the mail, and she would put them on her desk and she would leave them there. And she would not deposit them because when she put them in the bank physically, she experienced her money leaving her, even though that’s the exact opposite of what was happening. And it was completely subconscious. She discovered it, had an aha moment in the middle of one of the programs we were doing. And it was like amazing because literally, a physical block to the flow of money. These checks would sit on her desk, and her emotional experience is the opposite of reality, but unquestioned until she was willing and able to look at it from a different perspective.

Nina Cashman: Wow.

Hilary Hendershott: And a lot of my clients find similar, I call it a neurosis, I mean, no value judgment. Man, we all have them.

Nina Cashman: Yeah, absolutely.

Hilary Hendershott: But it’s a little bit of neurosis. So, what are some of the exercises that you mentioned? So, intellectualizing about it is one thing, but is the client willing to do the work in between sessions? Give me an example of some of the work you have people do.

Nina Cashman: Well, putting really into practice the actual theories that we talk about. So, say in the case that you just brought up, what I would describe that as is your client having control issues with money. So, instead of allowing the flow and the cycle of money to be shared by all so the transaction can pass into multiple hands and having more of connected energy around money or a thought process of abundance, that there is a cycle to it, she was more in this place of control. So, we would expose that, 90% of everything is just becoming aware in the same way she was, which was, wow, I’m doing this. So, sometimes the exercise can be as simple as, okay, so when are you going to deposit those checks? And we mark that down. I’m going to deposit them on this day of the week. Alright. How can I hold you accountable? Can you shoot me an email on that day? Absolutely, I can.

Hilary Hendershott: So, you get real practical. That’s good.

Nina Cashman: Yeah. Sometimes, it’s like, look, this is not rocket science. Living and breathing as a human being is not rocket science. And that’s all we’re doing. And the funny thing is, so much of the work I do is just about living and breathing as a human being. And it’s so funny how we get disconnected from just the practical steps. To your point earlier, man, action cures fear. It’s as simple as that. We don’t have to go a lot deeper. Just go to the bank, cash those checks, tell me how you feel. How did that feel? And then we get back into feelings. In my work, there’s a lot around that just because that’s where a lot of the energy is coming from. So, does that answer your question?

Hilary Hendershott: Yeah, so you mentioned and you wrote to me about the seven stages, your financial seven stages. So, I’m used to the seven stages of financial maturity. This is a famous book in my industry. And you had a different seven stages, although they parallel, and you just brought them up. So, would you share about those?

Nina Cashman: Absolutely. So, I, like I said earlier, was trained by IPEC. That’s where I got my coaching certification. And with that, we have this assessment called the Energy Leadership Index. And what that does is it measures the seven levels of energy, and those do translate into our energy towards money. And starting at the bottom, a level 1 energy, which is typically a victim mentality, which, by the way, we all fluctuate through these levels all the time. We’re human beings. This is not about the seven stages of enlightenment and how can I live at level 7 all the time. This is about join the club. We’re all human. We all go there to these different levels.

Hilary Hendershott: So, I know some days I feel more enlightened than others.

Nina Cashman: Yeah, of course. Yeah. And then something could quickly throw you off. And that’s part of the process of life. So, again, this is about what the assessment helps you measure. It’s just awareness around it because when you’re empowered with awareness of how you’re treating things, it gives you more power to make a conscious choice for yourself because you’re aware. So, again, level 1 energy around money is the belief in scarcity. And you’re kind of in an I’m losing mentality at level 1. It’s victim energy at its core.

And then, a step-up, level 2, the energy is greed. And greed comes from this mentality of I win, you lose. And let’s face it, we’ve all experienced in our lives working with someone who’s operating from level 2 energy, and they’re not fun to work with. In fact, you either feel like a victim when you’re working with it, or they make you angry. They put you in level 2 energy, which is anger.

Hilary Hendershott: So, is that like in corporate America, they would say, oh, there’s always someone who wins every meeting. And I never understood it, but I saw it happening. Is that kind of what you mean?

Nina Cashman: Yes. And level 2, by the way, levels 2 and 3 actually run rampant in corporate America. And there’s a lot of organizations who are understanding that there are different levels of energy where you can achieve even more success, quite frankly, where everyone can actually gain a piece of the pot versus just making sure that someone else loses. That’s to me, is a somewhat old school mentality in terms of how people can be led. So, transcending beyond greed is level 3, and that’s the stage of control that would correlate pretty well with the example that you had of the woman who couldn’t cash her checks.

Hilary Hendershott: Controls her checks on the desk.

Nina Cashman: Exactly. She was controlling it. And I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a lot of assumption and historical thoughts around money that made her really believe that you got to control your money. And so, she’s probably very validated in that action until she’s open to a new reality with it. Then the next level up is charity, and charity, the mentality is you win and that’s level 4. And charity is there’s a beautiful side to that, and it’s a great place, I think, especially for successful people to be open to, to allow money to flow. It’s not the best place to run a business. If you’re constantly giving your services away at a really low discounted value, you’re not necessarily doing yourself much justice in terms of financial success.

Hilary Hendershott: Well, that doesn’t make you sustainable, really.

Nina Cashman: Right, exactly. So, all of these levels have their pluses and minuses. Level 4 is not the greatest place in business. Level 5 is a great place to operate from a business. And you can tell sort of the difference between, say, level 5, which is opportunity versus level 2, which is greed, because in the realm of opportunities, all participants win. And there’s a caveat to that, which is there’s a level of assertion you take at level 5, which is you’re so committed to this idea. Look, we either all feel great about this transaction or we don’t play.

So, at level 5, you can very assertively say no and walk away from the negotiation table because you’re committed to the idea of, look, there’s no reason why we all can’t gain from this in some way. And in order to do that, that actually requires a certain level of creativity because it’s very easy to understand what you want and just stay in your own head. It’s also very easy to cave and just say, alright, whatever, what do you want? I’ll just give you my shirt. Let’s make the deal. Let’s sign.

Hilary Hendershott: This is great. I think I did this just yesterday. It’s really interesting to hear you narrate it. Yeah, that’s fantastic.

Nina Cashman: Yeah. So, level 6 and level 7, they get a little bit more lofty when it comes to business, definitely worth noting sometimes personally and I would say even may be relevant for the example you used before, for the control, the person who had the control energy around money. Level 6, the mentality is that money is really shared by all, and there’s abundance, and we all can connect to it. It’s almost like if you imagine just sort of a sea of money, it’s like, why are you not casting your net in that sea? Because it’s flowing, it’s flowing all around us. And why do you think you’re separate from that connection? That’s really a level 6 energy. Level 7, which this is very hard for me to operate for very long, is money is just paper. It’s just an illusion. And that can be a tough one to grasp.

Hilary Hendershott: Well, I intellectually know that that’s true. I can’t actually say that I operate that way, though.

Nina Cashman: Yeah. That’s a little bit tougher to put into practice. So, if I ask a client, let’s just start burning your money. I don’t think most of us would be interested in doing that, but the thing is, there is some merit sometimes to that, which is like, look, at the end of the day, sometimes we allow, I mean, I’ve heard of people taking their lives because of financial distress. And when you’re in those moments, I think that’s where level 7 actually can come in sort of handy. It’s like, wow, are you really going to allow this paper to cause you to cease to exist even? So, there are times where level 7 is very functional, and I would say it’s probably in more extreme circumstances.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay, well, that’s really interesting. And I’ll put at least the seven levels in the show notes. And if you have a resource or a quick read or a PDF or a report that you want to include for people as a resource, maybe we could do that, too, in case they want to go deeper with this framework. And so, with just a few minutes, not just a few, but we’re sort of getting to the end of our time together, I would love to hear a couple of stories from your work with clients or from just stories about in reality. How does it look when someone takes on their money beliefs and produces a shift that leads to a new reality?

Nina Cashman: Great. So, I have a couple of good stories. One was a shift from the belief in the scarcity of money and stabilizing into the realm of control. And here’s the thing with these different energy levels, it’s hard to shift in one full sweep more than two levels. So, if you’re working with someone or if you yourself are operating from a place of scarcity, you’re not necessarily just going to jump to, hey, guys, let’s form a win-win because you don’t even necessarily have the perspective to be able to do that from a place of scarcity.

So, I worked with one client who really did operate from a place of scarcity with finances. And because of that, she was severely in debt. And what we finally had to do was really open her eyes to a place of control at a minimum to a place of responsibility to start with. And in order to do that again, it was all about raising awareness first for wow, yeah, I’m here. I’m kind of in this, I’m losing mentality. And because of that, I continue to draw on situations of debt. I continue to accumulate debt because I’m telling myself I’m losing when it comes to money. And so, again, making her aware of that was enough to start making the shift because when she recognized how much that was limiting her finances, she was convinced enough to make a shift.

So, what we started to do is really get real with what was actually going on. And as simple as it sounds, back to action cures fear, one of her action items was, look, I worked with her on building a line item spreadsheet of all of her various expenses, business and household. And I asked her to fill it out for the month and really, so we could take a glimpse at her monthly expenses. And it was very, very fearful for her because she actually had to shine a light on what she knew deep down was not working. And it was amazing.

Hilary Hendershott: That’s why most people stop.

Nina Cashman: Yeah, she did it. She did it. And what happened was, together in a very comforting environment and a safe environment, we held space for that. And we looked at it. And once we looked at it and recognized the obvious of what was that, she had certain expenses that were just really, I would say, extreme nice-to-haves. And we need a few nice-to-haves in our lives, but these were insane.

Hilary Hendershott: Oh, your choices about nice-to-haves need to be based on what’s coming in. So, you should have all the nice-to-haves that you can afford.

Nina Cashman: Right, exactly. And here’s the deal, so having two horses when you can barely buy groceries. She wasn’t at a stage at that point where she was ready for that and that doesn’t mean she won’t be. She absolutely will be. She just has to stabilize first and recognize kind of where she was.

Hilary Hendershott: That’s really interesting. I’ve seen the same thing with people who have horses many times.

Nina Cashman: Really, yeah, I think horses, both those doodads that just tend to suck a lot of money, but they’re fun hobbies for sure, but either way, so we had to stabilize and kind of gaining a sense of control because it was really out of control. And then it was just a matter of tapping into inner wisdom, asking her questions that she easily could answer for herself. She didn’t need my advice at all. It was like, wow, when you look at this, what bubbles up for you? What do you see here? And she was able to answer that on her own. And there’s such a power when people can hear themselves talk because we are all so, so wise. We all have the answers inside. And sometimes, it just takes opening our eyes to a greater perspective in order to start seeing the answers. And so, yeah, that was a pretty amazing situation. And she really has continued to grow from there, so.

Hilary Hendershott: Well, I see how you’re leading people through these seven stages, and I know exactly what you mean when you say we can only really traverse one or two at a time, but it’s just really empowering and enlightening to have it crystallized in that way. So, you went from scarcity consciously, intentionally to control with her. And yeah, that’s great. That’s fantastic. You have one more story?

Nina Cashman: I do have one more story. Another one is with someone I worked with in client services who really wanted to take their business to the next level. And what we recognized was that they were operating very much from the charity mindset. And in doing so, again, I’m a big believer in this idea of energy attracts like energy. If you’re someone who’s constantly giving, constantly, constantly giving, it’s no wonder that you’re going to attract a lot of people who want to take. So, it was very, very enlightening to work with this person and expose that a lot of their clients, a lot of the clients that they were drawing into their business did operate from scarcity or greed. And why? They were very attracted to nickel and diming and they found a perfect person to work within that sense.

So, when that person was, again, able to develop some awareness that you know what? Charity is very useful in the world and it’s a very caring place to operate from. And there are times where it’s amazing to only care about the other person. I have a husband who is so great in that sense that he cares so much about his kids and about me and gives and a lot of respect. In business, level 5 tends to work better because the thing that’s great about level 5 is you’re not only taking care of the other person, you’re also making sure your wants and needs are met. And it’s not really a compromise either. It’s a no, let’s both feel awesome about this. This isn’t how can we compromise and water down the idea and both walk away feeling like, ah, I guess.

This is about no, let’s sit at the table and make sure that I’m delivering exactly what you need and because I’m going to deliver exactly what you need and the way you want it and put so much value in that you’re going to pay me, you’re going to pay me what that is worth. And that’s a win-win because we’re both taken care of and you attract a whole new level of clientele when you’re operating from that because what starts to happen is you begin to say no to the clients who are operating from greed or scarcity because it’s just a non-negotiable for you at this point.

Hilary Hendershott: I think we could do a whole seminar on level 5 for women because we’re the caretakers. And I mean, for so many women, I mean, money flows into their hands and then right back out to their family, loved ones, children, family members, all in an act of charity, but what you’re talking about just brings so much distinction. And it’s like I think most women operate from, well, either I have it or they have it and a natural giving mindset is, well, of course, I want them to have it, but what you’re saying is that’s actually a construct actually made up. And there’s no reason that everyone can’t benefit, be joyful, be grateful, and be glad that they participated.

Nina Cashman: Right. It’s less of an us versus them, and it’s more of a we.

Hilary Hendershott: Yeah, I love it. Okay, that’s fantastic. And I could talk to you all day, but I’m going to wrap it up so that we can keep people within a normal commute time for our show lengths. And I know you have something that you want to share with my audience. Would you talk a little bit about what that is?

Nina Cashman: Yeah. So, anyone who is interested in learning more about the Energy Leadership Index or learning more about how coaching can really help shift outcomes in your financial life or with your perceptions of success, feel free to get in touch with me. My website is PaveYourWay.com, and I’m always happy to do discovery sessions to learn more about people’s coaching needs to determine if we’d make a good fit, if we can build a win-win, essentially.

Hilary Hendershott: Great. Do you have an online scheduling calendar? Or do they email you a request for a consultation?

Nina Cashman: Yeah, I do have an online scheduling link that I give to people after they initially reach out. So, there’s a way through my website to get in touch with me on the contact tab.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay.

Nina Cashman: So, that’s probably the best place to start it, PaveYourWay.com.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay, so you can either go to PaveYourWay.com or again, we’ll include a link in the show notes. And Nina, I just want to thank you for being here. It’s been a great conversation. Thanks so much for sharing with the Profit Boss audience.

Nina Cashman: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure. I appreciate it, Hilary.

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