265 | Permission to Be Rich: A Conversation of Possibilities with Cathy Heller

Hilary Hendershott: Well, hello, Money Lover. Today I’m welcoming Cathy Heller back to the show. As you may recall, Cathy’s a teacher, podcaster, and author known around the world. She hosts one of the top spiritual podcasts, Abundant Ever After, which has been downloaded more than 45 million times.

Hilary Hendershott: Cathy is a practitioner of the law of reception, has a deep understanding of the universal principles of manifestation, and she guides individuals on a transformative journey towards unlocking their highest potential.

Hilary Hendershott: One of the reasons I love having Cathy on the show is because there’s so much overlap between her spiritual encouragement to lean into connection to higher power and my message of self empowerment. Cathy and I are both in the arena sharing our own past mistakes with money, and now, our currently transformed and abundant state, because we want you to know that abundance and wealth are in reach for everyone.

Hilary Hendershott: Cathy joined me on the podcast to talk about her latest book, Abundant Ever After: Tools for Creating a Life of Prosperity and Ease. Who wouldn’t want that?

Hilary Hendershott: It is officially available as of today, which is so exciting. There’s a lot of overlap between Cathy’s book and my 7 Steps to Wealth framework which you’ve just been listening to in the episodes preceding today, especially the steps of speaking, asking, and earning. And I’m looking forward to sharing the power of these practices in her words, because they can truly transform your life.

Hilary Hendershott: So, in the spirit of living abundantly ever after, let’s get started.

Hilary Hendershott: Cathy Heller, welcome back to Love, your Money®.

Cathy Heller: Thank you for having me. I just love you, so I’m always happy to be with you.

Hilary Hendershott: I couldn’t stop reading your book. And it was on my screen, which is not how I normally read books. So that says something that I was like, it’s just story after story after story. And you’ve renamed your podcast and the name of the book is Abundant Ever After. The word abundance gets thrown around a lot. Some people could argue it, it is definitionless. So what is your meaning when you say abundance? What does that mean to you?

Cathy Heller: I love that observation, because it’s true. What the heck does it mean? I heard that in Alaska there’s like 70 words for snow, because it’s always snowing. So it’s like what kind of snow? And I think it’s the same thing with abundance. I think that we innately know that we want abundance. I think that’s because we feel that, on some level, there’s a part of us that is abundant, which is our soul, which is our consciousness, which is our capacity for an infinite amount of creativity, an infinite amount of passion. There’s something about us that does know there’s an abundance.

Cathy Heller: And I think those of us who’ve ever been in a flow state, right, they now know how to measure that and look at flow state–Michael Jordan, you know, is seen as somebody who could move into flow state–I think that that to me is abundance; is that feeling that I am completely, totally in that feeling of flow. Right? And then, when you’re in that feeling of flow state, you feel creative.

Cathy Heller: You feel a feeling of like… it’s more than inner peace. Because you’re like in creative mode, right? Which is like, it’s not only this feeling of equanimity, you’re so in overflow that you have the next idea, and you have enthusiasm. And so I say that because if you ask somebody, sometimes they’ll say abundance would mean 10 million dollars or a beautiful house, and then I’ll say to them, can I ask you a question? As beautiful as that list is, I think you have bigger dreams.

Cathy Heller: I think that more than you want piles of things you want to feel life force moving through you. You want to feel excited; in love with life. You want your mind to be at peace.

Cathy Heller: And then they say, “Yeah.” So I say, “Okay, well, I think you can have it all. I think you can have a nice pile of things that you like. But I think more than that, you can probably find a way to meet yourself in your true state of being, which will feel like abundance.”

Hilary Hendershott: And I think for those of you listening after Cathy shared that space and definition of abundance, you can imagine what your bank accounts would look like in that state. There’s like, probably a number, right? Because bank accounts get measured in numbers.

Hilary Hendershott: And that number would support what you’re up to and your infinite abundance. There was actually, Cathy, I don’t even know if you know this, there was a segment on your podcast that I love so much. You compared limiting the resources that we deserve to saying that an oak tree shouldn’t have more water or soil.

Cathy Heller: Right. It is ridiculous. It’s like, you know, when you look out at nature, and you look at everything that God created, everything that’s here. Like everything in nature, we co-sign that it’s designed to thrive.

Cathy Heller: We know that every eagle is designed to have enough that it can fly and not just fly one day once in its life, but it should have enough that it flies all the time. It’s designed to do that, right? A plant is designed to grow out of its pot and into the earth, and to take root and to keep sprouting more. And a redwood tree wouldn’t say to itself, you know, “Oh, my gosh! I should question, you know, whether I should be this tall, or take up this much space, or have this much water.”

Cathy Heller: Like no, in its integrity, doing its assignment on behalf of the rest of the world, it needs to do what it needs to do.

Cathy Heller: A dolphin cannot be put in a swimming pool. It needs enough ocean that it can flourish. We’re the only things in nature that question whether or not we should be thriving, right? It’s like, “Well, I’ll just have just enough.” Why? You weren’t designed that way. You were designed to be in overflow. But when the story of scarcity takes hold, which is a lie, and says, there’s only enough for each of us to have a tiny crumb, then in some way you feel as though by you thriving and living into your potential, you’re denying somebody else their abundance when it’s completely and totally not–A, is it not true, but, B, it’s the opposite, right?

Cathy Heller: Like, if I paint my house, the value of my house goes up, which means my neighbor’s house just went up in value instantly. And if I open a store on Main Street because I’m excited about being an entrepreneur, I just created the opportunity for more activity on Main Street, which means I’m increasing the abundance for anyone who then opened a store.

Cathy Heller: In the garden, if there’s a tree that’s starting to get weeds, you have to pull the weeds because it’ll affect eventually the whole garden. But if there’s a tree that’s thriving, it’s going to give life, and it’s going to pollinate everything else in the garden. It’s going to add to the beauty for the whole ecosystem, which is really the truth, that we are each part of this oneness.

Cathy Heller: We’re part of our communities, part of our neighborhoods, part of the family, part of the country, part of the earth, part of the whole. And the more that each one of us steps into overflow, in whatever form of abundance that is–health, vitality, that’ll be contagious, right? You’ll inspire other people to take their health seriously. The more you have an abundance of love, you’ll give that love away, and same thing with wealth.

Cathy Heller: The more you are wealthy, the more you will steward that wealth, the more you will be able to invest in the market, and be underwriting things that other people can be a part of.

Hilary Hendershott: And I do think it’s important to define or think about abundance in contrast to the scarcity that you talk about. It seems to me women are so willing to live in.

Hilary Hendershott: In your book, you talk about what it took to unravel your good girl story and your good wife narrative, and to change those money beliefs so that you could convince yourself if you had money, you would still be relatable; not corrupted. What did that take?

Cathy Heller: First of all, I’m really enjoying this conversation because I told you that I gave myself permission to not go do a quote unquote, like crazy book tour, instead of doing a hundred podcast interviews, I just said to my team, just book, like 10 with like people that I really like.

Cathy Heller: And you were so nice to make this time. But what I love about these questions is like, you’re not asking me the same questions that other people ask me. It’s really interesting, even just listening to the podcasters’ questions, people don’t even go there with money. They ask me about the spiritual stuff. It’s like they still haven’t even worked through their own money stuff to like pull it apart, which is really interesting because I’m like, no, no, let’s go into the belly of the beast. Let’s talk about money. So I love that you asked me that.

Cathy Heller: I think it’s very much inside of women, in general–this idea of like, I can either be a good person or have money. I can’t be good and kind and nice and value-driven and relatable if I’m also rich. It’s just fascinating, because when men by and large are raised, they’re raised to feel that it’s actually good to be a provider. It’s good to make tons of money.

Cathy Heller: Women are given the subconscious, subliminal or overt message to be a pleaser; to make sure everyone’s comfortable. And so we deny our own power. Because would we make people uncomfortable if we were all so powerful. And then the question is, can you be kind and good and fierce at the same time? The answer is, yes, right? You could be a lioness, you could be… think of an animal.

Cathy Heller: Think of a female lion, right, who has both this true nurturing side, and is also– knows where her boundary is, and knows how to show up for herself and for her children when she needs to. That doesn’t make her not good, and that doesn’t make her not gentle, right? It’s really fascinating, we’ve made an unconscious decision that we will either be kind and good and loving and values driven, or we’ll be rich, and then we’ll be thrown out of the pack because we’ve become powerful, and now we’re abusing power somehow? Is what we think.

Cathy Heller: It’s a weird way that we judge each other because women don’t judge men when they hit the Forbes list, or they’re on the cover of the New York Times. They judge women because they’ve actually been brainwashed that there’s something not okay about that.

Cathy Heller: So if they see a woman do that, what happens is that it’s very confronting. And what they’re thinking is, how dare she do that? I don’t let myself do that, right?

Cathy Heller: But why the hell not, right? Why not? Like, when Taylor Swift made all this money over the last few years, she just paved a way for so many people to see a new possibility, and was also so generous. Like, she did things that people hadn’t done where she gave these bonuses to truck drivers and all… AMAZING. Great.

Cathy Heller: Fantastic. Right? So, yeah, I talk about in the book, I say to women like, I challenge you: Would you declare to your friends, to your family; would you say this at Thanksgiving dinner; would you post on Instagram that you want to be in your healthiest era ever? And they’re like, yes. Like great you should, because you would inspire people to get their steps in and eat healthier. I’m like, now.

Cathy Heller: Would you make a declaration out loud to your friends and family, or to your followers on Instagram, that you want to be in your wealthiest era?

Cathy Heller: And right away, I say, be honest, and they all get super uncomfortable. And I say so how on earth are you gonna allow yourself to have more of something that you have that much shame around?

Cathy Heller: And it’s so toxic, and it’s so unnecessary. It is a neutral, beautiful resource.

Cathy Heller: Do you feel that way about anything else in your life? Are you going to say, well, who am I to feel good physically and talk about how I no longer have headaches every day because I got off sugar? God forbid, because then I would make someone who does have a headache feel bad?

Cathy Heller: No, you’ll inspire that person, that if they maybe put more energy into getting off their sugar, maybe they also won’t feel so sluggish at 4 o’clock.

Cathy Heller: Why can’t you celebrate that there’s enough vitality that goes around, and other people will find their version of what’s the healthiest choices they can make, right?

Cathy Heller: We get that in health. And, you know, we also don’t get it in love sometimes, like women are afraid to share when something’s really beautiful in their love life. They don’t want to make people feel bad. That’s saying, on a deep level, you don’t feel other people are capable of finding love.

Cathy Heller: Why don’t you be an inspiration and share vulnerably what it took for you to open your heart that wide? What journey you had to overcome to set better boundaries and not select jerks? Or whatever it was that led you to that, shine it.

Cathy Heller: Show a possibility, right? So, we have it in certain ways. But the one we have it with the most is the permission to let ourselves be rich. It’s so toxic.

Hilary Hendershott: You know, and contrasting Taylor Swift, and the way she would go in city after city, and like bless the city with 6-figure gratuities.

Cathy Heller: Oh my God.

Hilary Hendershott: That she could afford to give. Contrast that with Mackenzie Scott–and I’m sure she’s a wonderful person–and in the media right now how she’s getting credibility; how she’s getting our blessings is by giving away billions of dollars, not by doing it, right?

Hilary Hendershott: And she co-earned that money with her former husband, and I find it interesting how she gets in the media, and now we’re exalting her because she’s just dumping money. Right? And that’s what a billionaire; the third richest woman on the planet has to do to get favor. And that’s I think us foisting the patriarchy on ourselves.

Hilary Hendershott: And again, I’m sure Mackenzie Scott is a great person. This is not a personal indictment of her, I just noticed that.

Cathy Heller: Yeah, that’s what–Priyanka Chopra said that to me. I want to give her the credit because she said that when she came on my show.

Cathy Heller: She said that she was actually supposed to go to law school. And to pay for law school, she entered a beauty contest, and she won. And then she wound up on a totally different path.

Cathy Heller: And then she got a lot of hate from women, because, you know, there she was in her full confidence, you know, winning beauty pageants, becoming an actress, getting paid, making money, you know, doing the things. And she thought, it’s interesting. She thought that men were giving her more encouragement than women.

Cathy Heller: And she said she thinks like the patriarchy of the last many thousands of years made women believe that there’s no room really for women to do that.

Cathy Heller: And so if a woman does do that, she said, why don’t you tip your hat to her? And say, thank you for creating a path.

Cathy Heller: Like let me actually shine your crown and put it back on your head, rather than say, wait, you’re doing something that’s wrong. And now I’m angry because I feel threatened or jealous, or you’re not supposed to thrive like that. Right?

Cathy Heller: You know, we could go further. But, like, women don’t necessarily celebrate their own sexual well-being. All of the ways in which a woman can just allow herself to feel good.

Cathy Heller: It almost feels like nails on the chalkboard when you first hear a woman talking about any version of truly feeling fulfilled and satisfied because it was so taken away from women for so long that it’s confronting, right? And so we all had mean girls in 7th grade, right? Because the idea is like, who is she to do that?

Cathy Heller: Versus no, no, she’s stepping up first in order to make room for you. And now there’s a path so everybody can go down it. There’s room for everybody.

Hilary Hendershott: In chapter 3 of your book, which is called Abundance = Be a Receiver, you draw this distinction between what’s talked about in the Law of Attraction, which is learning to attract what you want, and the difference in that energy of becoming a receiver. And you use the metaphor of tuning a radio to the frequency you want it. Can you say more about the difference between those two things?

Cathy Heller: Yeah, I love this so much because I think it’s so cool, you know, the law of attraction. But it’s interesting, Esther Hicks said that when they created the movie The Secret, they sort of made it about her work, which makes sense, you know, she created this like “ask and it is given,” and she’s such a brilliant speaker and channel, right? I think she channels all these beautiful ideas.

Cathy Heller: And she apparently asked to be cut out of that movie because she felt that the way they describe the Law of Attraction was not the way she describes it. And so it’s interesting because she talks about the Law of Attraction, but when she does, she always talks about being in receptive mode.

Cathy Heller: Okay? And so I think that’s really interesting, because the way I learned manifestation was the Law of Reception.

Cathy Heller: And I’ll explain now, kind of what that is. But it is kind of what she talks about with the law of being in receptive mode. Okay, so what does that mean? When I was living in Jerusalem and studying Jewish mysticism, my Rabbi said that the word Kabbalah means “to receive.” That’s what the word means in Hebrew, to receive.

Cathy Heller: And so he said, think about a radio. A radio is a receiver. And if you put a radio on in this room, you turn it on, you’re gonna hear music. So if you turn on the radio, he said, where was the music before?

Cathy Heller: And he said, hidden in plain sight.

Cathy Heller: It makes sense, right? It was here. But where? Hidden. But it’s here.

Cathy Heller: And so, he said, we are each like that radio whereby the music in our life which is, let’s call that whatever reality we’re experiencing, he said, that’s the one we’re tuning into.

Cathy Heller: Because everything is already in escrow. And so we are attuned to different stations based upon– are you feeling lack? Are you feeling doubt and shame? Because you’ll be tuned into that, and then your whole world won’t feel like a love song.

Cathy Heller: It’ll feel like static, maybe, or you’ll feel like you’re between two songs.

Hilary Hendershott: Struggle.

Cathy Heller: Struggle. So, he said, the more that we change our own vibration internally; the broadcast, whatever is being broadcast in our life will change. And I think that’s kind of what Esther Hicks is saying. That is receptive mode. The more we feel joy and love and gratitude, that is such a high vibration that our life will just kind of become synchronicity that leads to really beautiful things because the radio is in tune with the music of beautiful gifts and blessings.

Cathy Heller: And I think we often blame the broadcast and say, but this is the song that’s playing! And we don’t realize we’re choosing it. We don’t realize that we could be attuned to such a greater frequency. And it is interesting, because you and I both have talked to thousands and thousands of women at this point, through our podcast and through the work that we do.

Cathy Heller: And when I do a retreat. And I then offer this idea, that the way to get everything you want is to feel really good right now?

Cathy Heller: I’m telling you it’s fascinating. People don’t like that answer.

Cathy Heller: And then, when you think about that, you actually think, what is it about feeling good? And that being the thing I’m asking you to do that’s so bothersome.

Cathy Heller: And then you realize, because they’re addicted to feeling bad. They want to hold on to feeling bad and still get something outside of themselves. But ultimately, if you think that something outside of you is going to make you feel good, you’re wrong.

Cathy Heller: Because many people have tried that and lost. Like you can get tons of things checked off your list, right? You can have a relationship and still feel bad. You can have a beautiful car; a beautiful house; be on a beautiful beach in Hawaii, and in your head feel like garbage.

Cathy Heller: And so at some point you will have to realize that the more you find your own capacity to feel gratitude and well-being, and the connection you have to the divine and to everything in the universe, those will be the kinds of things that feel so good that nothing outside of you could ever make you feel as good as that.

Cathy Heller: And then the funny thing is, the more you feel good like that, everything will just want to be around you. You’ll just be a magnet for all this love, all these opportunities, money. It’s the way it is. It’s the law of resonance. It’ll just come right in because you are tuned to that station.

Hilary Hendershott: Can you give any practical examples of what’s happened maybe for you or someone that you worked with when they tuned in; when they shifted into being a receiver?

Cathy Heller: Yeah, there’s one example I talk about in the book, which is a fun one, but I have them all the time, which is, I started a podcast. And I was invited to go to this conference for podcasters. And I got there and everybody was networking. And I realized that I didn’t think that was going to happen. It didn’t dawn on me, and I didn’t make business cards, and so everyone was handing me their business card, asking me for my business card. I didn’t have one. And everybody’s energy in the room felt very fake, like everybody was like, you know, trying to be their…

Hilary Hendershott: Transactional.

Cathy Heller: Transactional self. So it didn’t feel great, and I turned to my friend, and I said, what do you think they’re after? What is the big goal here? And she said, everybody wants to meet Apple Podcasts people, because if you get featured on Apple, then you get this huge exposure. It’s kind of like being on the New York Times list for an author. I said, well, you know what this feels so ick, and so I’m gonna leave.

Cathy Heller: And I’ll come back when the event starts and people actually go into the conference and leave the networking party. So I left, and I went to a different hotel completely, and I got an iced tea.

Cathy Heller: And all of a sudden I didn’t feel this stress anymore. I just felt like I was a person having an iced tea. So I went from feeling like I needed to achieve something, where all of my abundance was in the hands of someone I would have to meet in the room, which just, it feels very stressful.

Cathy Heller: I went from that feeling to, I’m just me having a nice moment, having an iced tea. So that’s a much better moment. And then, sure enough, there’s a guy sitting next to me on the couch in the lobby, and he was reading the newspaper, and then he had the same badge on from the conference. And so he said, “Oh, were you at that conference earlier? Are you gonna go back?” And we were talking about the conference, and he said that the energy at the networking party is always something he tries to get around. He doesn’t like it.

Cathy Heller: And we talked for 45 min, and we had a really nice conversation, and when he was getting up to leave he gave me his card, and he said that he was the head of Apple Podcasts, and he would love to take me to lunch.

Cathy Heller: And so I was reminded in that moment, that when you go back into what is always within reach within you, which is finding your well-being, unbelievable things happen.

Cathy Heller: And so, sure enough, I went to have lunch with him at Apple, and it was fun to get the tour, and then they featured me not just once, but maybe like eight times, which, it was a big blessing, but it wasn’t…

Cathy Heller: It’s kind of like, if you’re a girl and you go out on a date and you really want the guy to like you, it won’t really help your date. But if you go on the date and you feel like you’re pretty in love with your own life, it will be really good for the date.

Cathy Heller: Matthew McConaughey told me that when he went to audition for A Time to Kill, he really wanted the part. And he told his mother he was gonna audition, and she said, “Don’t walk in there like you’re trying to buy the place.” She said, “Just walk in like you already own it.”

Cathy Heller: And I think there’s a feeling of wholeness, that when we feel whole, we don’t need something outside of us to make us feel whole.

Hilary Hendershott: Mmhmm.

Cathy Heller: The world will show up for us. But when we need something to happen to feel good, we just keep pushing that thing away.

Cathy Heller: So when someone really thinks that they need money to feel like they are worth it, there’s something kind of weird that happens with it.

Cathy Heller: But when you feel abundant, you love your life as it is– like every apartment I lived in, I thought I was the luckiest. I always loved the way the light came in through the window. I’m not joking like, I always thought I was so rich to live in these apartments.

Cathy Heller: I grew up in an apartment with my mom, and then I moved to LA, and I had this little one with a friend, and then I had my own apartment. I was like, I can’t believe I have my own apartment and this little like garden in front, and I thought I was so rich, you know? And then we moved into our first house. I was like, Oh, my God! This house is so sp– I look back now, I’m like that house was in front of a bus stop on a busy street, and it’s like well it was so special to me. I guess what I’m saying is when you never feel like you’ve been wrong because what you really need is somewhere in the future, but you actually feel so rich with what you have.

Cathy Heller: First of all, you’re the lucky recipient of feeling rich right then. You get to enjoy this beautiful life that you have. And then also it’s just kind of uncanny how, if there is more for you, it’ll just come very easily.

Hilary Hendershott: Well, so much to say. Also, in that same chapter, you talk about this idea, and I don’t want to miss talking about this. You talk about dropping our addiction to probability and stepping into possibility. Now, probability is a term I have a very intimate relationship with as a mathematician and an economist. But what do you actually mean when you draw the distinction between those two things? How can people tell one from the other?

Cathy Heller: Yeah, well, probability is where most of us hang out, because the brain loves us so much that it wants to protect us. And so it’s always evaluating risk.

Cathy Heller: So what it’s doing is, you think you’re living in the moment, but typically you’re living in the past, and you’re projecting the past upon the present. So you’re saying, here’s what I’ve already lived through, and I’m going to use that as a way to look at the moment I’m in to see what’s a risk and what’s not a risk for me to take? Should I open my heart to this person? Well, let me scan the past. How probable is it that this person will break my trust, right?

Hilary Hendershott: Uh huh.

Cathy Heller: So probability is about looking for the evidence we have, and then seeing what’s probable based upon what we’ve already experienced. Except that possibility is usually where successful people draw from, right? When a scientist is trying to find a cure for something, the only thing that allows them to keep going is that–.

Hilary Hendershott: Is possibility.

Cathy Heller: Right. And that is what put a man on the moon. You know, when JFK said, we’re gonna land a man on the moon; as he was making that speech, nobody yet knew how the heck they would do it.

Cathy Heller: But he believed it was possible. You know, my friend Amy Purdy, she lost her legs from the knees down from meningitis. And she had been a snowboarder as a kid, and when she was 19 she lost her legs, and they said, you know, you can’t snowboard anymore.

Cathy Heller: And she said, well, that’s probability. But you know, instead of saying, I can’t, maybe I’m just the first one to do that. Because maybe it is possible.

Cathy Heller: And so, had she said what’s probable? She wouldn’t have worked with the engineers. So she engineered two prosthetic feet that could bend enough to move with the snowboard. And then those feet are now in the Smithsonian.

Cathy Heller: She actually showed a possibility to such an extent that thousands of people now with prosthetics have done it since her, just because she showed the possibility. So now it becomes a little bit more probable because she created a possibility.

Cathy Heller: But you can look at the world from what’s probable, or you can ask, “But what’s possible?” And then you might take more action. Or you might actually lean in. Because you could say, yeah, my parents got divorced and their parents got divorced.

Cathy Heller: But there’s a possibility that I could bet on love, and maybe that won’t happen to me. Right? Sure, there’s a probability it will. But what would happen if I thought about what’s possible? And then maybe you find the evidence that that is possible.

Hilary Hendershott: And standing out there, standing in a possibility, I don’t know what your experience is, but my experience is, it can feel really vulnerable. It can feel, I’m very at risk, right? I remember first talking about how broke I was, when I was broke, and declaring to people that it was going to go a different way. And it was just like a washing machine of emotions. I was like, I can’t believe these words are coming out of my mouth.

Cathy Heller: Yeah. When I first moved to Los Angeles, my mom, who, her whole life, secretly wanted to be a performer, she was so triggered that I was going out to LA.

Cathy Heller: And I was 23 at the time, and she was like, it won’t happen. You’re in the clouds. Nothing’s gonna happen. It doesn’t happen to people like us. You have to have luck. You have to have a famous father. And I was sitting there thinking, oh, my God, this is heartbreaking. Like she’s yelling at me; screaming at me because I’m dangling what’s possible, which will then make her have to confront…

Cathy Heller: What choices did she make because she just assumed it wasn’t possible. So then I came to Los Angeles, and then, I got a record deal. I got dropped from a label. I got another record deal. I got dropped again, but then I found a way, for 10 years to write songs for TV shows and movies. And then that was a really fun outcome. It was unbelievably satisfying. And then I started a podcast and the podcast took off.

Cathy Heller: And so it was just really cool to see all these things happen that nobody thought were probable or possible. And then, sure enough, it’s like my actual, real life.  My husband went to law school. Nobody thought when we were getting married, and I had like red streaks in my hair, and I was playing the guitar at my wedding, nobody said, “Oh, one day, she’ll be the one. That’s what’s probable, she’ll be the breadwinner.” No, they’re like, “Oh, thank goodness he went to law school because this woman is untethered.

Cathy Heller: And no, it was the complete opposite. My 8 year old, if you ask her, “What do you want to do when you grow up?” She’s like, “a podcaster.” She thinks that that’s the richest thing you can do. No one told me when I started a podcast like, “Oh, that’s such a shoe in, the probability of you making millions of dollars. That’s definitely going to happen.” But it did so what does that mean?

Hilary Hendershott: So I imagine there are folks listening who maybe can’t quite get there, and maybe we go back to the idea you addressed a few minutes ago about how people may be addicted to not feeling good or not feeling their best. But if we jump ahead a few chapters in the book, our addiction to cortisol, negative thinking, you call it emotional congestion. What’s your recommendation there?

Cathy Heller: I mean, first of all, you are such a good interviewer. I wish this was every interview I’ve done. I’m so impressed with how much you’ve read the book, and then how you flow with questions. I’m not surprised why you’re so successful, I just want to say. Because money is really relationship at scale. And you’re so good at being just so present in relationship. I just had to say that out loud.

Hilary Hendershott: Thanks, Cathy.

Cathy Heller: You’re welcome.

Cathy Heller: Cortisol is a real thing. And we experience this emotional congestion. It’s like brain fog, because it’s kind of like the feeling of, how you feel after you go take a walk or go on the treadmill. And all of a sudden you’re like, “Oh, I just started to feel a little bit better than I had before when I was like not active with my body, let’s say, for four days, or for a week, or for four weeks, or for a month.”

Cathy Heller: You just changed the chemistry in your brain by walking, right? Well, what we don’t realize is that at every single second, what we think is not just contained in the mind, because every thought drips a pharmacy inside of us.

Cathy Heller: So every thought is accompanied by a chemical release. So if you think something stressful, cortisol gets released into your bloodstream and your cells experience the stress of cortisol.

Cathy Heller: If you think something really enlivening, you might feel you might get a drip of serotonin or dopamine which actually makes your system feel good, and it’s very restorative, right? So you’re either in fight or flight, and you’re pumping cortisol.

Cathy Heller: Or you are in a resting state where there’s a feeling of peace and well-being.

Cathy Heller: In fact, the reason why people like going on mushrooms, which I haven’t done, but I, I think it’s really intriguing, is because psilocybin creates serotonin at scale. So your cortisol goes down and the serotonin goes up, and life feels really light and joyful. Most of the time.

Cathy Heller: And so what we now understand about that chemical cortisol is that it is actually more addictive than nicotine, which means we become addicted biologically to feeling bad.

Hilary Hendershott: The stress hormone is addictive.

Cathy Heller: Right. We’re addicted to stress. So if you decided today, you’re going to go off sugar, you would probably think that’s a great idea until 48 hours from now, when your body is like withdrawing. And it’s like, “I need a candy bar. I just don’t feel good.” And you might get a headache because your body is addicted to the sugar, and it’s out of balance, right?

Cathy Heller: But if you push through, after a week you’ll be okay. Your body will need the sugar less. Right? It’s the same thing with the cortisol. If you’re addicted, literally, which we all are, to stress, then if you start being nicer to yourself and you are nicer to your husband, and you’re thinking about more possibility in your life, after a few days, your body’s gonna say, where’s the doubt?

Cathy Heller: Where’s the criticism? Where’s the shame? I need a hit of cortisol.

Cathy Heller: You keep telling your body and your mind it’s safe to feel good. And I am capable of feeling good for more days. The same way you stop wanting the sugar, you’ll start recalibrating your system to wanting less cortisol. You’ll become less addicted.

Cathy Heller: And the people who are living in the Blue Zones, who we now know a lot about because they live into their hundreds.

Cathy Heller: They have less cortisol, and the reason that they live longer is the cortisol we now know is responsible for inflammation, and the inflammation has a lot to do with disease.

Cathy Heller: They say there’s about 5% of diseases that this is a fait accompli, your body is going to have this disease if you have this certain environment; chemistry going on in your self.

Hilary Hendershott: Sure.

Cathy Heller: But outside of that they believe that you might be predisposed to a certain disease, but if you have less cortisol, and you lower the inflammation, and you have a better lifestyle and a better thought in your brain, you can probably not go down that genetic rabbit hole, and you could probably have a totally different life.

Cathy Heller: On the Blue Zones documentary, there’s an episode about the man who forgot to die. Because he was living in California near a freeway, breathing in exhaust and he got lung cancer. And he’s from Greece. He’s from this one little Blue Zone town. So he knew he was going to die. So he goes back to this town in Greece to build a vineyard for his children, so they can have these grapes long after he’s gone, and 40 years later they shoot this documentary about him because he’s still alive.

Hilary Hendershott: Eating the grapes.

Cathy Heller: They said, “What are you doing?” He said, “I guess I forgot to die.” Because what happened is that he went to the Blue Zone town where people live this beautiful lifestyle, which is why they all, in the Blue Zone town, live into like 100, 108, 113. And he went right back into that way of life, and he had an incredible recovery.

Cathy Heller: Now I’m not here saying that I know that that’s empirically what happens to every person, and that will happen, and you should all move to a Blue Zone. And that’s the answer. But what I am saying is that cortisol plays a role in our body and in our health, and that it is addictive, and that there are fascinating ways of looking at that and seeing clues that the less cortisol the better.

Hilary Hendershott: I also want to talk about the idea of having capacity for more; growing capacity for more. So in the book you tell this really funny story. I mean, maybe it’s funny because you compare yourself to Chevy Chase in Christmas Vacation, decorating for the holidays and what it taught you about capacity.

Cathy Heller: Oh, my God! I love that story.

Hilary Hendershott: Can you tell that story?

Cathy Heller: Oh, my gosh, it’s so funny. By the way, I believe that Christmas Vacation is the best of the Vacation series. But I know that people, some like… I like them all, but Christmas Vacation, my sister and I love. We know every line.

Cathy Heller: Randy Quaid, in that movie, oh, my God. Cousin Eddie. Okay. So during Covid, my kids, obviously, there were a lot of things that were taken away from them, and they didn’t have as much freedom. So when Christmas came around, I said to my husband, I’m gonna go crazy and I’m gonna buy every box of Christmas lights at Home Depot, and we’re gonna string the whole house. And so we did that.

Cathy Heller: And he said to me, it’s never going to work. And I was like, “Well, that is so rude,” and I’m going to do this, and blah blah. And so I hire this guy. It’s three days before Christmas. He puts lights on every tree. There’s a Buddy the Elf blow up, there’s a reindeer. I’m so excited; I just cannot wait. And so finally it comes time to put the lights on, and the lights are on for maybe 8 seconds, 10 seconds, and then everything goes off.

Cathy Heller: And I go inside and the refrigerator’s off, all the lights are off in the living room. My computer’s turned off. I’m like what’s happening. And so my husband says, “Let’s go to the circuit breaker. I’m going to show you what’s happening.” And so we walk over there with the guy who was stringing the lights, and we realize that there was not enough on the breaker to hold the amount of light.

Cathy Heller: And I had never done the math to figure out, okay, well, if I have a box of 100 lights, and then this one has 2,000 watts, and this reindeer thing spins around, and that has 1,800. I didn’t even realize it’s as simple as math.

Cathy Heller: And so my husband said, “That’s why I said it wouldn’t work, because in order for you to allow all that light, you would have to have enough power to hold the light, so you would have had to have called an electrician, and then, before the guy strung the lights, the electrician could have added wattage to the panel. But that would have required you to have an electrician come and wire the house so it could hold more electricity.”

Cathy Heller: And I realized, well Christmas might be ruined, but this is a great example for my book. What it shows us is that, at any given moment, you can only receive your capacity to receive.

Cathy Heller: And so what that means is, our mind, our brain, our body, our nervous system, the way we we’re wired, if someone does something really nice for you, and that’s not an experience that you’re used to, you actually will be uncomfortable receiving it.

Cathy Heller: Because when the mind sees something that’s new, it registers it as unsafe because it’s unfamiliar.

Cathy Heller: So when my husband and I were engaged, he bought me a car. He literally went and got me a car, and I begged him to return it because no one had ever bought me a car. When my dad left, when I was in middle school, then eventually I saved and saved, and I bought myself this like old, rundown car.

Cathy Heller: And when my husband did that I didn’t have that capacity to receive– “Oh, thank you so much.”

Cathy Heller: I was like not “Oh, thank you so much.” I was like, “What do you want from me? What does this obligate me to? What do I have to now earn? What do I have to like, never now have an opinion?” It was so out of left field.

Cathy Heller: If you think about it like, how many times have you gone to lunch with a friend, and she says, “Let me pay!” And you go, “Oh, my God absolutely not.” It’s like why? You know, why not say, “That’s so nice? Thank you.”

Cathy Heller: It’s whatever your capacity is to receive. The good news is that we can grow a greater capacity to receive. I remember the first time my husband and I went to the Hotel Bel Air. We stayed overnight there, and I had never stayed at a hotel that nice. Now, if we stay at a hotel, we stay in like a really nice suite. But this was just like their basic room. And even just the basic room.

Cathy Heller: We got to the room. We went to dinner. We both got a massage. We came back from the Spa. I went into the shower to take a shower, and I was weeping because there was a part of me that thought to myself, “I can’t believe I’m here. I can’t believe the towels are so soft. I can’t believe I deserve this.”

Cathy Heller: Well, that was a part of me that had pushed through what I thought was my capacity to receive, and while it was really a beautiful feeling, it also felt…

Cathy Heller: There was something about me, the old me that I had to face.

Cathy Heller: You know it’s like in Good Will Hunting when Robin Williams, he goes to hug Matt Damon’s character, and Matt Damon grew up abused, and he goes to hug him, and he’s like, “No, no, no, no!”

Cathy Heller: And he goes to hug him. He goes, “Stop! Stop it!”

Cathy Heller: And then he’s like, “I just want to hug you. It’s not your fault.” And it actually hurts at first, because no one’s ever held him like that.

Cathy Heller: And so he has to kind of break through what was his like capacity to receive love; he has to expand and let in more love.

Cathy Heller: And in the journey to letting in more love, he has to face where he hit his ceiling because of what felt familiar in the past.

Cathy Heller: And that’s vulnerable. It takes courage. And so you and I both know the experience of having gone from not having money to people paying us more, and that feeling of courage to receive.

Hilary Hendershott: It takes something.

Cathy Heller: It takes courage to ask for more, because it takes courage to have a greater capacity to receive more.

Hilary Hendershott: And all of this, by the way, magic sparked by a Jewish woman preparing her home for Christmas.

Cathy Heller: Yeah, beautiful. The best.

Hilary Hendershott: That’s beautiful. It reminds me of this year, on my birthday, my team collaborated on, and created a poem; piece of art; letter about how wonderful I am. I could hardly open it right?

Hilary Hendershott: Talk about expanding capacity for more. Yeah, it was really beautiful. So cool. So cool, the things people do to express gratitude and the ripple effects on people’s lives.

Hilary Hendershott: You know, last year, I had you on this show, and I got so sidetracked talking about Harry Connick, Jr. that I forgot to ask you my signature question. But it’s actually perfect, because as you publish Abundant Ever After, I do want to ask you, if your money were writing you a love note, what would it be thanking you, or complimenting you for?

Cathy Heller: First of all, if you’re gonna get sidetracked about anything, for God’s sakes, let it be, Harry Connick, Jr. Oh, my God!

Hilary Hendershott: That’s probably the only time I’d forgotten to ask the question all year.

Cathy Heller: I cannot think of another movie… Hope Floats, and him and Sandra Bullock, and how hot he is in that movie” No one comes close. I’m sorry. Okay.

Cathy Heller: I think if my money could write me a letter, it would say, thank you for the way you play; the way you graciously receive this and also generously contribute it. And keep letting yourself receive it, and thrive with it. And show other women that that’s there for them, too.

Hilary Hendershott: Amazing. I’ll wrap this up with a sentiment you actually dropped, and it’s in the book: “Remember, creating abundance for yourself creates abundance for others.”

Cathy Heller: True.

Hilary Hendershott: Thanks for being here, Cathy.

Cathy Heller: Oh, my Gosh! The best.