267 | How to Find the Right Fit (and Most Funds) for College with Dr. Pamela Ellis, The Education Doctor

[INTRODUCTION]

Hilary Hendershott: Have you ever wanted to know how to give your child a 95% chance of getting into their top choice college with $75,000 of scholarship money? I think you do. Pay attention, Money Lover, because today we’re making it happen.

Hilary Hendershott: Today, I’m talking with Pamela Ellis, AKA, The Education Doctor. Pamela has helped over 30,000 families navigate college admissions, ensuring teens find the right fit without overspending.

Hilary Hendershott: She’s an award-winning author of the bestseller What to Know Before They Go, College Edition. Pamela founded Compass College Advisory, which has a 95% success rate in getting students into their top choice colleges, as I said, securing an average of $75,000 in scholarships per student. Buckle up for a conversation you will find illuminating, and that will definitely cover more than just how to fund a 529.

[EPISODE]

Hilary Hendershott:  Dr. Pamela Ellis, welcome to Love, your Money®.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Thank you, Hilary. I’m excited to be here.

Hilary Hendershott: Oh, my gosh! I can imagine my listeners are at the edges of their seat. This is a topic everyone is so frustrated by, and wants to know more about.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yes, they do.

Hilary Hendershott: Today we’re talking about how to get your child into the right college, and with money.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: With money! That’s right.

Hilary Hendershott: With money.

Hilary Hendershott: Tell me how your career brought you to this point. How did you get to be where you are?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Oh, my goodness. Wow, that’s a long story, and I’m going to shorten it. But before I do, I want to say to your listeners just how amazing you are as a host, and certainly remind them all to go out and do a 5-star review.

Hilary Hendershott: Oh, my gosh!

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And so, I really appreciate everything you do in this space.

Hilary Hendershott: Thank you. My producers will send you a check. I appreciate this.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Absolutely, absolutely. And so, my back story is that I am a first-generation college graduate and first-generation high school graduate, as well.

Hilary Hendershott: Wow!

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Because my parents finished 8th and my dad finished 10th. And so with that being said, they really couldn’t help me with the college process.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Fast forward, I finished college with only $10,000 in debt, which was great then, is great now. But when I started I went there with $70, and just had no idea of what I was getting into or how to really make it work those four years.

Hilary Hendershott: Did that $70 afford you a textbook?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: It didn’t, because when I got to the bookstore the next day my books were $350 for the first quarter, so I really didn’t know what I was getting into. But certainly Hilary, becoming a mom is really what got me into what I’m doing today. Because, as you know, most parents, you want the best for your kids, and I was just obsessed with figuring out how to help them through school.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And so that’s what led me to the work that I’m doing, and I was so obsessed that I went back to get my doctorate degree, and my work is around high school to college transition. So what supports students with navigating high school and going on to thrive in college.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay, and you seem to have discovered kind of a special sauce when it comes to strategizing college.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yeah.

Hilary Hendershott: Was there one ah-ha moment that led you to becoming The Education Doctor?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: I think a lot of it was the concern around supporting parents and really giving them the tools that they needed. Many of my parents that I work with are executives, and they have very busy schedules and time starved, and just really not having the bandwidth to support their kids. And so I partner with them in that journey.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Like most parents know, kids hear things differently from a third party than they do their parents, and my work really supports them with strengthening that parent-teen bond.

Hilary Hendershott: Now do you do that in a one-on-one way or…?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: I do it in both one-on-one, and groups.

Hilary Hendershott: Is it true that you visited 500 colleges?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: It is. It is. You sound surprised by that.

Hilary Hendershott: Can you name them? No, I’m kidding.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Oh, I wish.

Hilary Hendershott: I know. When you go to visit a college, are you looking for something specific? Are you making relationships? What is on the research agenda?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Actually, the research agenda for those college visits is really getting a sense for the feel of the college, so that as I am working with students, all types of students, you know, how can that college best support students?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And what types of students do they excel in supporting? So that’s really the key thing that I’m looking for. And those visits make such a huge difference, because we’re looking at the student first in terms of, what are the factors of fit for them, and then applying that to the colleges. And it looks different for every student.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And just having that background of so many colleges, seeing similarities as well as differences in the environments, and talking with students, sometimes talking with the presidents of the colleges, has really made a difference in terms of being able to do that.

Hilary Hendershott: Getting to know the ethos of the school, huh?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yes.

Hilary Hendershott: And so, on the chronological timeline, when would you have families begin to start thinking about strategizing for college applications?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: It’s gonna usually be 10th grade at the latest.

Hilary Hendershott: And what are the activities that they’re doing in the 10th grade, for example?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: They’re starting to build their application portfolio–so what’s going to be submitted in their applications. Some families come as early as 9th grade. And what we’re doing is grade year specific. And so for 9th and 10th grade, a lot of it is around mindset, just as you talk about.

Hilary Hendershott: Is that right?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yeah, it’s mindset of not only the teen, but the parents as well.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Because for the parents, you know, it’s letting go and letting their teen own the process. For the teens, it’s really confronting and knowing what’s their why for college, and looking at what are their values, and giving them that opportunity to understand more about who they are and what interests them.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And sometimes that time to reflect and really think about those things just doesn’t happen without some assistance, and also making space for it to happen.

Hilary Hendershott: Well, it probably doesn’t happen, because, especially in some circles, it’s Ivy League or nothing. Right? I mean.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Right.

Hilary Hendershott: The more fancy brand name your school the better you are as a parent. And so there’s almost no thought given to, is this the right school for my student?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: That is so true, and we want to make sure that it’s centered on what’s a fit for my student and who my student is, and what’s going to support them in developing their confidence as they are making those decisions around those school choices.

Hilary Hendershott: Can you say more about inviting the parents to let go of the process? I felt myself go, “Wait! What? No!”

Hilary Hendershott: Because I’ve got one shot to do this right. I gotta make sure to over manage this project. And my 14-year old can’t do it better than me. Say more about that.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yes, I think we all feel that way as parents, but in so many occasions, our kids just hear things differently from us as parents than they do from a third party.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And so what we’re doing is allowing the parent to trust their teen, essentially, because if you’re doing it for her, I guarantee you it’s not going to be quite what may be the best for her.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Because in many ways when you’re doing it for her, Hilary, you’re doing it as you would do it for yourself, but not necessarily for her, if that makes sense to you. And so as parents, we’re thinking, yeah, we got this, it’s our process. We are doing this. And it’s like, No, it’s really your teen’s journey.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And some of the time, we do a combination of both the individual and family meetings, so that parents can still be a part of it.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: But they’re not controlling it, or really taking away that responsibility for their teen in terms of being accountable, becoming independent, and really learning how to self advocate.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And they can’t learn that if you’re doing it for them. And so that’s what I mean in terms of letting go, because sometimes, as parents, we’re afraid, we don’t want them to be hurt. We don’t want them to feel, quote, unquote, rejected. And so we may take it away from them. But what I’ve seen when parents do that is, the student becomes resentful.

Hilary Hendershott: Mmhmm.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And it’s easy to say, you know, I don’t want to be at this college because I didn’t choose to come here.

Hilary Hendershott: Right.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: We really don’t want that. And so, rather than parents always feeling that they have to nag their teen to even get them to talk about college, or to nag them to do the things that they think they should be doing, we take that away and talk about it and give them the ownership of the process.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: We’re coaching and guiding. We’re not doing it for them, and we don’t want parents doing it for them, either, because that’s something that colleges can very much recognize right away if you’re doing it for them.

Hilary Hendershott: Really?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

Hilary Hendershott: I think some of my clients spend their child’s junior and senior years, maybe 30 hours a week.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Oh, parents spend well over 300 hours helping their teen with the college admissions process, and the parents that I work with, they don’t have that kind of time. They really don’t.

Hilary Hendershott: Yeah.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And yeah, maybe they would want to get in there and start writing essays. But they really don’t have the bandwidth to do it.

Hilary Hendershott: Correct. Yeah, I hear you. Well, let’s talk about sticker price. Okay? Every college has a cost of attendance number on its website. And this is the intimidating part for many families, especially mass affluent, you know, they’ve saved in a 529. But of course you can borrow money for college. You can’t borrow money for retirement.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Right.

Hilary Hendershott: There’s a natural push-pull there. What do you want parents to know about that sticker price number?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: That 20% of families nationally are paying the sticker price.

Hilary Hendershott: Oh! Are the other 80% paying more or less?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: The 80% are getting some monies for college.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay. Talk to me about this process.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yeah, so with our students, so 95% are admitted to their top choice colleges. And the average scholarship is $75,000.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: The overwhelming majority of families that we work with do not qualify for any financial aid.

Hilary Hendershott: Right.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: They do not.

Hilary Hendershott: But you can still qualify for scholarships.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yes, and the biggest dollars come from the colleges, because we all know that yes, that’s a sticker price that they have online. The other number to look at in the details is, what is the average paid?

Hilary Hendershott: Oh, okay. The average paid by the endowment at the college?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: No, for families who are paying to go to that college.

Hilary Hendershott: Oh, I see. So you can also find out what people are actually paying.

Hilary Hendershott: I see, okay. And so, is getting a scholarship or targeting yourself for large scholarship–I mean, I would call $75,000 big money. That’s big money. Tell me, tell me, what’s the key to that?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: The key to that is the right fit.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And it’s what we embed in our process, is looking at, what are the five factors of fit for that student. And then we’re matching that with the colleges.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And so that’s how we’re able to support them with admissions and also getting money for college. Because when it’s the right fit, those are the colleges that you are also most likely to thrive at. And that’s what the colleges are looking for, is students who are going to contribute and thrive when they’re there.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And so that’s what we are matching up, if you will. Because our process always starts with the student. What are those five factors of fit for them? That’s how we start to build the list.

Hilary Hendershott: Are the five factors five categories? What are they?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: They are. They are academic, social, financial, vocational, and cultural. So those are the five factors of fit that we employ in our process.

Hilary Hendershott: I can imagine four of them. What is meant by social?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Social is really about how you make friends.

Hilary Hendershott: Say more about that? In other words, do I need a football game to make friends? Is it like that, or am I living in the dorms kind of a thing?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yes, the residential experience is definitely part of it. It’s also the ways that you engage to make friends. Like for some kids, they make friends through playing chess. Or maybe they’re a gamer, or maybe they do make friends through a sport because they’re playing a sport. The other thing about the social fit can be any dietary restrictions, because a lot of times we make friends through meals.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And so can that college accommodate that for you?

Hilary Hendershott: Oh, wow! I’ve never thought about that.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: That’s what I mean in terms of the social piece. And it’s come up, you know, with a lot of our students, like one of our students, she needs to be in a celiac free environment.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And so that meant, then that we have to make sure that the colleges can support that. And nowadays they all do.

Hilary Hendershott: Yeah. Gluten free. Yeah.

Hilary Hendershott: That is very interesting. So as you’re targeting, is it just that families come to you? And you have a wide, ranging knowledge of what these colleges are, the five factors for the college, you get to know the student. And so you’re able to kind of immediately funnel them towards a small suite of colleges that you think fit. And then does the scholarship money come as an outcrop of that?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Exactly.

Hilary Hendershott: How much time are families spending applying for scholarships? Is it all from the college?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: The bulk of the money, especially if you’re a family of means, is going to come from the colleges.

Hilary Hendershott: So they aren’t sending out 10,000 scholarship applications to get $75,000. You’re targeting one particular source.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yes, we’re focused on the colleges, because that’s the biggest pot, Hilary. There are tons of scholarships out there, and families can start applying for scholarships as early as age 13. So they don’t even have to wait to apply for these scholarships. Many of them are going to range from $500 to about maybe $2,500.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And there are a sprinkling of some that are really substantial. And for one of our students, who was a STEM student, because there’s a lot of colleges that offer scholarships in STEM, the foundation that offers the scholarships are linked to the colleges.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And so you can’t get the money unless you are admitted to a particular college.

Hilary Hendershott: I see.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: So that’s where we focus our energy, is on the colleges and making sure that they’re the right colleges for those students.

Hilary Hendershott: And there is lots of talk about strategizing the FAFSA. Are your families filling out the FAFSA? And are you integrating strategy into that?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: They are filling out the FAFSA, and I’m not sure if I would say we’re integrating strategy to it, I mean.

Hilary Hendershott: In other words, are you trying to lower taxable income?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Well, what we do is, we do refer them to a financial advisor that can help them with that piece because we’re not financial advisors. And so I can’t speak to that.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: We know the colleges, we know those well, and we know the application process related to those colleges. But the financial advising piece we don’t do.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: We do encourage them to apply for FAFSA, and also to apply through the CSS Profile if the college needs that, because sometimes parents don’t even know that term or realize that they need to even complete that form.

Hilary Hendershott: What’s CSS?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: It’s a form that’s required for mostly private colleges. And there are a few public universities that also require the CSS Profile. So it’s a separate file, and it’s one where they ask questions totally different from FAFSA.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: But it’s all related to getting those monies directly from the institutions because they have their endowments. They have massive budgets for awarding these dollars, and they can make a decision about need totally different from the Federal Government.

Hilary Hendershott: Really. Oh, that is so interesting!

Hilary Hendershott: And I hear you about financial advisors on the FAFSA.

Hilary Hendershott: Do you have any kind of hero or heroine stories of students you’ve worked with who you think may have, without your consultation, sort of gone a traditional route, when, in fact, they were better targeted or better suited for a school that they might not have even known about, and that they ended up thriving there with?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yeah.

Hilary Hendershott: Tell my listeners. Let’s hear it.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yeah, I have quite a few of those. One in particular that comes to mind is a student who, she really didn’t know what she wanted to do.

Hilary Hendershott: Yeah. Who does at 15?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Right. She was an equestrian, and she knew that she wanted a place where she could ride. And so there were some issues in terms of transcript. So she didn’t have the perfect transcript, but certainly did want to go to college so that she could ride.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And that required looking at things a little bit differently in terms of what the options would be, and also making sure that she was in a place where she could get the support that she needed.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Her parents were both physicians, and so not expecting any money at all. And they were one of those parents that I said, “No, still fill out FAFSA. Just do it, anyway. And Dad spent about maybe 30, 45 min doing FAFSA.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And it ended up that not only did she get scholarships at all the colleges where she applied.

Hilary Hendershott: Really.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: But also at the college where she decided to go, even knowing the resources that they had, they gave her an additional $12,000, because he filled out FAFSA.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: That, I think, was a windfall, and I know for sure that the colleges that she probably would have chosen, or even if they had done it together as a family would have been mostly local colleges within their state, and probably not really the opportunities that she had for the school where she attended.

Hilary Hendershott: So she ended up going out of state.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: She did, and oftentimes the thought is that it’ll be cheaper to stay in state, but I have not seen that yet.

Hilary Hendershott: Is it true that you said female students actually do better the further they go from their home?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yes.

Hilary Hendershott: Can you do me a favor, and never tell my daughter that?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: You know something I won’t. I’ll whisper it now, just between me and you.

Hilary Hendershott: Now, I’m thinking back. I went to university 20 minutes from my home. I’m thinking, I wonder if I had gone to Hawaii, what would have happened? Let’s see, what do you think is the average 529 account size balance that families who work with you have?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: That I wouldn’t know, Hilary.

Hilary Hendershott: You don’t ask.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: I sure don’t. One thing I know for sure is that the majority of my families do have a financial advisor.

Hilary Hendershott: Do you recommend any softwares? Do you use any particular databases in your work? It’s your brain, huh?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: No, no, I do have a database. Everything isn’t in my brain. There are other people who work on my team. They would be in trouble if they had to wait on me. So no, we do have a database that we work with, that our students use to do their college research.

Hilary Hendershott: Get access to.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: Yes, exactly.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay. Wow.

Hilary Hendershott: Okay, very good. Did you say, in the spirit of the holidays, that you have a gift for my audience?

Dr. Pamela Ellis: I absolutely do. I came bearing a gift, and for all of those who have listened to the end, the gift that I have for them is a College Confidence Blueprint. What it is is a roadmap of step by step, for each grade year, how to best support your teen in their college journey.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And also a communication guide, because so many times, parents aren’t sure how to have that conversation about college with their students in a way that their student doesn’t blow up, or do the silent treatment. And all they have to do is message me on Linkedin, the keyword Blueprint25, and I’ll send it over to them. And I’m at Dr. Pamela Ellis on Linkedin, D-R, P-A-M-E-L-A, E-L-L-I-S.

Hilary Hendershott: And that’s Blueprint25.

Hilary Hendershott: Oh, my gosh, thank you so much. Well, and we do have a signature question that I ask all my guests.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: And I’m ready for it.

Hilary Hendershott: My question to you is, if your money were writing you a love note, what would it be thanking you or complimenting you for.

Dr. Pamela Ellis: It would thank me for putting it in the right places at the right time.

Hilary Hendershott: Lovely. Okay, got it. Strategic placement? Yes, money needs a place and a job.

Hilary Hendershott: Thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure to have this conversation with you, Dr. Ellis.